6R80 in Place of 4R70W

[CDsDontBurn]

Now that I'm back driving in an MN12, I've been reminded of how much of a dog the 4R70W is compared to a more modern transmission.

I've gotten curious and see that there are 6R80 swaps out there here and there, but I'm curious if anyone here has done it yet?

IMO, this transmission would work tons better over our existing 4R70W transmission. It'd probably get us better torque yields as well

 

[Grog6]

Fix your 4r. My transmissions shift like a manual. I use an 02 core, but the extra parts can be added to your 96+easily.
If you really gotta have it, the 6r needs a stand- alone controller. We don't have enough pci-express lanes on our cpu, lol.

 

[Wile E. Coyote]

A 5.0 6R80 swap would be a killer daily imo.

 

[Chingon1]

@CDsDontBurn does the 4R have the Jmod?? It helps a ton on these trans. Dollar for dollar one of the best mods to do.

That’s what I wanna do!! The 4R sucks ass, there’s too much of a gap between gears, it drops too much RPM with stock gears, which are great for the highway but I would not sacrifice my 3.23’s for some 3.73’s or 4.10’s to gain a bit of acceleration.

I wrote down the gear ratios and how much torque they would put down given 300ftlb’s of torque. It’s a clear winner.

First gear is 4.17 vs 2.84 in the 4R that alone nets you an additional 399ftlb’s.

I think us shift is releasing soon the 10r which first get is like a 4.70!!!

 

[Chingon1]

You can use the cruise control buttons to up and down shift. It’s pretty much a performance trans from the factory, and you’d never blow it at 2v power levels.

It also has a ignition cut feature to shift faster but cutting the ignition a lil bit between shifts

 

[Chingon1]

Or if you wanna get down and totally upgrade the computer, shader wrote a book on how to wire up the copperhead computer from the 11-14 mustang GT’s into new edge 99-04 mustangs. I’m sure a lil work and it’ll work on our birds.

It’ll give you coil packs and I think drive by wire also. Killer if you go that route. I bet it’ll even run better with all that computing power

6r80 Transmission Swap Guide

Now available in PDF Format! The Shrader 6r80 Transmission Swap Guide is available after years of R&D on our own 6r80 swapped new edge Mustang. With the success of Coyote Mustang Auto's running 8-second timeslips in the 1/4 mile with only some boost and basic bolt-ons added, it was time to see...

www.shraderperformance.com

 

[Derphound01]

I would rather do a T-45 swap with all the fabrication than try to make electrics work. But that's just me.

And yes I know a T-45 swap has its own electrical gremlins. But you get what I mean.

 

[CDsDontBurn]

@Grog6 , I'm not sure if "fixing" it is the problem as it's short two entire gears in comparison.

I don't have a the J-Mod done to my Gold Bird as I just got it. Perhaps the J-Mod will "fix" it, but until I get that on there, I'm not sure.

@Chingon1 , I'll look over those videos later today. Thanks for sharing them.

@Derphound01 , a manual swap really is the easiest way, but pedals are the hardest part to source. And to keep this car (my Gold Bird) as close to its "true" form, then improving the automatic is the best way to go for me. My Pearl T-Bird is getting the fun bits, including the TR-3650 (s197) manual swap.

 

[Stanley]

It's is on my list: everything I've seen says it's possible. But it's a ways down the road for me, so I'll be following this with interest.

 

[XR7-4.6]

….And the project creep begins

 

[Chingon1]

@CDsDontBurn then you should definitely get it first. It changes the transmission from a lazy SOB to a peppy one In no time and it shifts way faster. But the gear ratios still suck. Compared to new ones.

 

[KevinVarnes]

6R80 swap definitely sounds interesting. I don't know much about them, but the transmission is my one concern on the '97 at almost 200k miles. I might contact Shrader to find why it is '99-'04 and nothing prior.

 

[Kenz]

Sounds like a 6r80 swap would require a massive amount of time, money, and effort. Another option to consider is just getting a S550. From the reviews I have watched they have a lot of similarities to MN12s. They are big, heavy, GT cruiser coupes, basically a modern-day personal luxury vehicle almost like the MN12.

I recall someone on Youtube doing a crazy MN12 Thunderbird build. I think they are going full Coyote with the 6r80/10r80 and maybe even boosted

Edit... Here it is, I think he's on the FB site

 

[XR7-4.6]

The big issue that just occurred to me is CA emissions, the stock PCM can’t control a 6R80 and whether the solution is an aftermarket ECU, or a standalone controller with the 4R70w trans controls shut off in the stock PCM, that won’t be able to pass.

 

[KEVIN8989]

The big issue that just occurred to me is CA emissions, the stock PCM can’t control a 6R80 and whether the solution is an aftermarket ECU, or a standalone controller with the 4R70w trans controls shut off in the stock PCM, that won’t be able to pass.

Would it pass smog on 89-92 T-Birds or Cougars?

 

[KevinVarnes]

Would it pass smog on 89-92 T-Birds or Cougars?

Possibly, but I don't know if they made the 6R80 with the SBF bellhousing so you would need to adapt to it.

 

[KEVIN8989]

I wonder if it would even fit on a SC.

 

[CDsDontBurn]

Sounds like a 6r80 swap would require a massive amount of time, money, and effort. Another option to consider is just getting a S550. From the reviews I have watched they have a lot of similarities to MN12s. They are big, heavy, GT cruiser coupes, basically a modern-day personal luxury vehicle almost like the MN12.

I recall someone on Youtube doing a crazy MN12 Thunderbird build. I think they are going full Coyote with the 6r80/10r80 and maybe even boosted

Edit... Here it is, I think he's on the FB site

Sure, but fun things are never easy. Also, it'd be fun to creep up on an a550 and have them be "WTF just happened?!"

Ahh, yes. Oxman. Not sure if he's come here from TSTSNBN or not.

The big issue that just occurred to me is CA emissions, the stock PCM can’t control a 6R80 and whether the solution is an aftermarket ECU, or a standalone controller with the 4R70w trans controls shut off in the stock PCM, that won’t be able to pass.

No, it won't. Guess I'll need a 3rd T-Bird then

Would it pass smog on 89-92 T-Birds or Cougars?

Still, no. Current law exempts vehicles older than 1966 from smog. Leno's Law is trying to change that, but it still has not gone to the governor's desk for veto / signature.

Possibly, but I don't know if they made the 6R80 with the SBF bellhousing so you would need to adapt to it.

I wonder if it would even fit on a SC.

From the light reading I've done, it seems that a bell housing adapter is needed for the 4.6. I would translate that to any engine would need an adapter plate to work for your desired engine.

 

[KEVIN8989]

Sure, but fun things are never easy. Also, it'd be fun to creep up on an a550 and have them be "WTF just happened?!"

Ahh, yes. Oxman. Not sure if he's come here from TSTSNBN or not.



No, it won't. Guess I'll need a 3rd T-Bird then



Still, no. Current law exempts vehicles older than 1966 from smog. Leno's Law is trying to change that, but it still has not gone to the governor's desk for veto / signature.



From the light reading I've done, it seems that a bell housing adapter is needed for the 4.6. I would translate that to any engine would need an adapter plate to work for your desired engine.

It wouldn’t affect smog because it would be replacing a AOD transmission that is 100% mechanical.

 

[Zep5.0]

@CDsDontBurn, r we talking Pearl or the sand buggy? Daily drivers don't need to be fun, but if it was mine, I'd saw off the mufflers and put long tips on it. It will give the impression you have more power at least. Then if you get Pearl up and running you could start looking for a trans to swap.

As stated, if you have 2 project cars neither will get done.

 

[Chingon1]

The 4.6 does not need an adapter to work, it’s the same as the coyote engine. Pretty much you need a f150 starter and a 8 bolt flywheel which pretty much sucks because don’t our cars have a 6 bolt?? I think only Windsor’s came with the 8 bolt crank or forged cobra’s. Anyways, the best one to get is the f150 trans because they have 1 extra clutch compared to the mustangs.

To keep it smog legal you’d just get the US shift controller and leave the stock 4.6 intact


I’ve read a BUNCH on this swap. The controller is around $1400, 6R about $1000-$1500 drive shaft $500?? Starter, new bolts, the 4R are a little short to reach. And a trans mount that PBH sells for like 50$

 

[dDUBb]

Current law exempts vehicles older than 1966 from smog.

1974.

It wouldn’t affect smog because it would be replacing a AOD transmission that is 100% mechanical.

True, won't affect smog .. you'd just need the adapter to make it work with the SBF bolt pattern and the other items mentioned in this thread.

 

[Kenz]

So replacing the 4r70w with a 6r80 would require a tune to eliminate the transmission functions? Pretty much same as a manual tune, plus a separate transmission controller...

Might be more advantageous to just swap in an entire drivetrain from a doner car while at it.
Could go Ecoboost or Coyote

 

[Generalee0527]

I bought the book from Shrader. you are correct the MODULAR family needs no adapter. My problem is I don't have a lift nor a shop in which to do this in. Then again, my bird is my daily driver and I have at least 5 more before I can retire. As for why the specific years I believe I read that it has to do with the PATS. The thing I din't like was you essentially hide the mustang dash in the rear seat or something to be able to satisfy PATS to keep the ecu unlocked. They had nothing but praise for the robustness of the "copperhead" ecu. I believe what turned me off was not absolutely fitting the tunnel meaning my Big Fat HAmmer would get a workout and my rotator cuffs are already partially torn. It can be done cheaper than the US Shift, but I watched an interview of the US Shift developer and the GEN 2 was a complete re-write of the code and it is the real sh*t. It is worth the money and it avoids the hackery to use factory stuff. IDK i just barely get into FORSCAN w/ the rest of my ford fleet so going to a binary editor or something like megasquirt is not possible w/ my calendar.

 

[XR7-4.6]

The 4.6 does not need an adapter to work, it’s the same as the coyote engine. Pretty much you need a f150 starter and a 8 bolt flywheel which pretty much sucks because don’t our cars have a 6 bolt?? I think only Windsor’s came with the 8 bolt crank or forged cobra’s. Anyways, the best one to get is the f150 trans because they have 1 extra clutch compared to the mustangs.

To keep it smog legal you’d just get the US shift controller and leave the stock 4.6 intact


I’ve read a BUNCH on this swap. The controller is around $1400, 6R about $1000-$1500 drive shaft $500?? Starter, new bolts, the 4R are a little short to reach. And a trans mount that PBH sells for like 50$

The trouble is if you don’t have the transmission hooked up to the stock EEC you’re going to get DTCs galore and it will still pull timing for shifts and force you into the max spark at low load timing table(which is to say 15° of timing max) just like it would if you ran a manual transmission without a tune. It won’t pass smog with DTCs and it won’t pass smog with a flash checksum

 

[1997ThunderbirdLXV6]

This is one of these threads where I lack any expertise on the subject matter...

Nonetheless, I have thoughts. Firstly, it seems counterintuitive to me to buy a relatively cheap modern classic for a few thousand dollars, then consider component swaps worth...wait for it: a few thousand dollars.

I can't help myself, but I like the Thunderbird because it feels the way it does. Lazy? Huge ratio steps between gears? All true, but no deal breaker.
The one thing I really don't like are off-throttle upshifts. I drive at about 35 mph downhill, release the throttle, the car gains speed due to the slope, and suddenly it shifts into 4th and gains more speed. That seems like bad tuning to me. If I had wanted an upshift, I would have kept my foot on the throttle. Of course, the O/D OFF switch eliminates this behavior, so no big deal.

I have owned a car with an 8-speed before, and I have driven 10-speeds. They shift all the time. It's annoying. I will admit that I think 6 is the perfect number of gears. I agree with the original idea of this thread; the benefit would be indisputable. I just don't see the point in this car.

But what do I know...

 

[Kenz]

This is one of these threads where I lack any expertise on the subject matter...

Nonetheless, I have thoughts. Firstly, it seems counterintuitive to me to buy a relatively cheap modern classic for a few thousand dollars, then consider component swaps worth...wait for it: a few thousand dollars.

I can't help myself, but I like the Thunderbird because it feels the way it does. Lazy? Huge ratio steps between gears? All true, but no deal breaker.
The one thing I really don't like are off-throttle upshifts. I drive at about 35 mph downhill, release the throttle, the car gains speed due to the slope, and suddenly it shifts into 4th and gains more speed. That seems like bad tuning to me. If I had wanted an upshift, I would have kept my foot on the throttle. Of course, the O/D OFF switch eliminates this behavior, so no big deal.

I have owned a car with an 8-speed before, and I have driven 10-speeds. They shift all the time. It's annoying. I will admit that I think 6 is the perfect number of gears. I agree with the original idea of this thread; the benefit would be indisputable. I just don't see the point in this car.

But what do I know...

Don't sell yourself short, very well said and I completely agree.

One of the reasons I found a manual swap 4.6 so alluring, is it's creating something Ford never did, but could have at the time. However retro modding a newer automatic into an old drivetrain IMO seems like a lot of effort for only a little gain and comes with a loss of some of the old-style character the old automatic has.

 

[Trunk Monkey]

Sounds like a 6r80 swap would require a massive amount of time, money, and effort. Another option to consider is just getting a S550. From the reviews I have watched they have a lot of similarities to MN12s. They are big, heavy, GT cruiser coupes, basically a modern-day personal luxury vehicle almost like the MN12.

I recall someone on Youtube doing a crazy MN12 Thunderbird build. I think they are going full Coyote with the 6r80/10r80 and maybe even boosted

Edit... Here it is, I think he's on the FB site

Yeah, I know him. Super nice and talented guy. It’s amazing what he’s done with his car. He used to be a member over at TSTSNBN.

I’ve been to his house a couple of times in my travels.

 

[Grog6]

a6r trans swap is do-able; it would take a mustang eec swap. you could do knock sensors.
The prob is it needs 6 wires to control it, and we have 4. So mustang eec.

 

[CDsDontBurn]

1974.

Before I was born either way, so no difference to me

Firstly, it seems counterintuitive to me to buy a relatively cheap modern classic for a few thousand dollars, then consider component swaps worth...wait for it: a few thousand dollars.

I can't help myself, but I like the Thunderbird because it feels the way it does. Lazy? Huge ratio steps between gears? All true, but no deal breaker.

Counterintuitive to have better shifting? The only counterintuitive part of this would be the exorbitant cost of this mod now that I know more about it, lol.

The idea of having better shifting is what attracts me to this.

Of course, the O/D OFF switch eliminates this behavior, so no big deal.

I have to fix mine. I've yet to tear into the shifter console to take a proper look at this. I'm hoping it's something as simple as the pigtail being unplugged.

I have owned a car with an 8-speed before, and I have driven 10-speeds. They shift all the time. It's annoying. I will admit that I think 6 is the perfect number of gears.

100% this.