Air Conditioning: I took a gamble and...

[Vicinity]

Blend door actuator is doable with some minor contortions. I've seen much worse on some newer cars. Mine got stuck on cold in the middle of February with my son and I about 6 hours from home several years ago. That was a cold ride home.

I cant remember if it was that or the heater core but I saw a 2019~ suv in a shop with the interior, gauge cluster and console torn apart for that. It was a horror show

 

[dDUBb]

If it works, but not well, it probably doesn't have enough freon in it.

Freon is to refrigerant what Charmin is to toilet paper. It's a brand name for R12 and that was banned for all manufacturers after 1994. Not sure when Ford made the change; but you won't find it in anything made after 1994.

 

[Grog6]

Everyone I know calls it freon, but yeah, you have to get the right kind. I heard r134 was going to be banned, so I socked in a case in the basement, that I bought for a buck a can. My refrigerant gage set is so old, I'm going to have to replace it. I guess I've had it 40 years. I got my money's worth.
The coldest beer in town when I was young had a huge ammonia based cooler. Full of beer. I used to stop in there on my way to the trails we used to ride on in the 70's, drop it off in a spring I knew of, and ride all day. Roll a joint drink a beer, and go home and hose off in the yard, lol.

 

[dDUBb]

I heard r134 was going to be banned, so I socked in a case in the basement, that I bought for a buck a can. My refrigerant gage set is so old, I'm going to have to replace it. I guess I've had it 40 years. I got my money's worth.

Not banned .. they just stopped manufacturing it. You can still buy R134 and even R12. This is why it's important to recover refeigerant; not just due to environmental reasons - because whatever is out there is all there will ever be.

 

[KevinVarnes]

My AC issue only happens when the interior is hot as hot can be...exactly when you need the AC most. In the mornings and evenings it works fine. I just made a 25-mile drive home in 97deg temps turning the AC on, having it feel like a blowtorch, turning the AC off. Did this about 5 times. When I get to within a half mile of my home, I try again and it works. The compressor is working and generating cold air, it's just not making it to the cabin. I'm thinking that maybe the blend door expands (don't know exactly how it's configured, wish I had a manual or diagram) and when it expands it gets stuck. Sounds like a good idea at first but I would think the box/duct would also expand with extreme heat.

Kevin, maybe you could give a few more details on how to pull the actuator? I pulled the glove box down and I see a box to the left of the fan. I'm assuming this is the blend door module. I see a couple of small hex head screws, on on the right, one on the left. The left one seems like it might hold a bracket/clamp that holds things in place? I figured I would experiment on one of my parts cars to see what I can remove, trying not to break anything.

Sure would like this puppy to blow cold air into the cabin in the extreme heat of mid-day...

It was a few years ago so details are foggy. If I have a chance over the long weekend I'll see if I can pull the glove box and refresh my memory. I have a back log of other people's cars to fix after being on vacation last week first though.

 

[GRWeldon]

Grog, it works. It's the blend door. It has a full charge of 36oz. Of 134a. When it gets hot inside, the blend door seems to get stuck in the closed position. It seems to work most of the time if I turn the AC off before I shut off the car. If I forget to turn off the AC and it gets super hot inside, it won't blow cold air even though the airbox is cold. I thought I mentioned that in thus thread.

I'd like to dig in to the airport and see what is going on but it doesn't look like a very easy job. Wish there were some how-to videos online specific to our cars but I haven't found any.

 

[GRWeldon]

Not banned .. they just stopped manufacturing it. You can still buy R134 and even R12. This is why it's important to recover refeigerant; not just due to environmental reasons - because whatever is out there is all there will ever be.

Don't you have to have a multi-thousand dollar machine to recover the refrigerant?

 

[dDUBb]

Don't you have to have a multi-thousand dollar machine to recover the refrigerant?

That would help .. but all you need is a recovery tank - put a deep vacuum on the tank and you can pull out most of the refrigerant

 

[White Lincoln]

The 4.6 and 3.8 compressors are both the FS-10, but they mount differently so they don't interchange. With A/C it's often best to tackle it all at once, so you don't find yourself kicking yourself for skipping something and it backfiring on you in the near-term.

I re-did my whole A/C last year and it was not that hard to do and did not cost an arm and a leg.

 

[White Lincoln]

That would help .. but all you need is a recovery tank - put a deep vacuum on the tank and you can pull out most of the refrigerant

You can go by a mechanic and they can remove it for you.

 

[dDUBb]

The coldest beer in town when I was young had a huge ammonia based cooler.

We stopped making Ammonia refrigerators in 1929 .. of course it is still used around the world and in industrial applications; its one of the most effective refrigerants ( although flammable and the methyl chloride is toxic ). As for being the coldest beer in town - that has more to do with the settings and modern energy efficient units aren't typically set that low. A morgue refrigerator needs to be 40 degrees regardless of the type of refrigerant used - you don't actually want to "freeze" a dead body. I have to believe the assortment of beer back then is probably not as watered down as the beers of today also.

You can go by a mechanic and they can remove it for you.

That wasn't the question; but that's always an option.

I re-did my whole A/C last year and it was not that hard to do and did not cost an arm and a leg.

You could have just gone to a mechanic ..

 

[GRWeldon]

You can go by a mechanic and they can remove it for you.

I know I COULD but I never would...

 

[GRWeldon]

That would help .. but all you need is a recovery tank - put a deep vacuum on the tank and you can pull out most of the refrigerant

I do have an old helium tank...would that work?

 

[dDUBb]

I do have an old helium tank...would that work?

It might work if you add a Y fitting with a siphon tube .. not sure if the pressure rating is similar or if the inside of that tank has corrosion resistance though. I wouldn't recommend it. But people have been known to use old propane tanks after modification.

 

[White Lincoln]

You could have just gone to a mechanic ..

What?! Do you think I am RICH or something? I asked how much it would have cost to have them do the A/C. Some $1200... more than the car is worth. I did it for around $300. They just put the R-134 in.

 

[dDUBb]

What?! Do you think I am RICH or something? I asked how much it would have cost to have them do the A/C. Some $1200... more than the car is worth. I did it for around $300. They just put the R-134 in.

I have no idea. That was a joke, but I think you missed it.

 

[GRWeldon]

It might work if you add a Y fitting with a siphon tube .. not sure if the pressure rating is similar or if the inside of that tank has corrosion resistance though. I wouldn't recommend it. But people have been known to use old propane tanks after modification.

If you would, please explain in a bit more detail. I haven't ever done anything similar to this and I have no idea what you are trying to tell me. I have bled brakes before using vacuum but that's about it. I DO however have a very old propane tank that is structurally sound. It even has a gauge on it that shows how full it is. It's the only one I've ever seen like it.

 

[dDUBb]

If you would, please explain in a bit more detail. I haven't ever done anything similar to this and I have no idea what you are trying to tell me. I have bled brakes before using vacuum but that's about it. I DO however have a very old propane tank that is structurally sound. It even has a gauge on it that shows how full it is. It's the only one I've ever seen like it.

.. something like this. The Y fitting has ports for the high and low pressure. The siphon tube extends down into the tank. ( what is the purpose of the siphon tube .. ? ) .. that's another story.

An old propane tank may still have internal corrosion; it's condition is unknown until you look inside. Not recommended IMO but people on this forum tend to do things outside of the box on occasion.

Not trying to get too long winded here; your question was about needing expensive equipment to recover refrigerant - and while that is true for the most part especially on the professional end, I mentioned that there are other methods for the responsible recovery of refrigerant. 36 oz is not much - they'll never know. I lost about 120 pounds to the atmosphere from a system at a jobsite last year - there was a defect that developed in a Brazed joint inside the condensor unit and it all leaked out after 1 year.

 

[GRWeldon]

36 oz is not much - they'll never know.

If I lost tons per year nobody would ever know. Unless you are commercially licensed and charge people to service their AC systems only then can they (they being who? the EPA? the local government? yeah...right) force you to use recovery equipment. I'm not about intentionally ruining the atmosphere, don't get me wrong. I have about 10-12 vehicles on my property that ARE my property. Every one of them has an AC system. I would actually consider getting one of the $600 recovery machines from Vevor along with the tank you suggested. However, out of the 12 cars I own, only 6 or so of them run currently and if the AC doesn't work on any of them then they are already discharged! In fact, the only time I work on AC systems is when they are discharged as I've never intentionally discharged one. It wouldn't bother me if I had either. Now if I were routinely discharging a car a month, I think my conscience would force me to get one of the less-expensive recovery units. Plus, not having to buy as much replacement refrigerant would probably pay for the system in a year were I doing a car a month.

I was not aware that R134A was not being manufactured anymore. Guess it's time to stock up. The last 3 cans I bought were $13 each. I can't really afford too many but I wouldn't want to be caught without any should I need to charge a system!

I have a question regarding recovery using only a tank. Suppose I wanted to recover refrigerant from 2 cars. After the first one, there is no more vacuum left in the tank. I can't pull another vacuum on the tank without losing what's in there already, can I? I'd have to put what's already in the recovery tank back into a car first, wouldn't I?

 

[dDUBb]

I'll try to answer some of your questions ..

Technically; you're supposed to have a section 609 certification if you do any kind of AC service on a motor vehicle ( for payment or barter ) .. or if you want to buy more than 2 pounds of refrigerant. The 609 cert is required by the EPA. They're not forcing you to do anything except be responsible for not releasing refrigerant to the atmosphere ( within reasonable circumstances ) .. it's more of an "honor" system .. but if your neighbors or anybody witnesses the irresponsible release of refrigerant, they can report you.

The first step in diagnosing a refrigeration system is usually to have a fully charged system. The system can be leak tested with dry nitrogen; or put under a vacuum before charging with refrigerant. Once the system is determined to be leak free and subsequently charged; troubleshooting may point to a component that needs to be replaced - and the refrigerant should be recovered for reuse at this point. Like you said, refrigerant can get expensive. The 30# bottles of R410A ( commercial use ) I purchase used to be less than $100 before 2020; they are over $300 now.

Recovering refrigerant with one tank - you will only be able to recover enough refrigerant until the pressures equalize - if you have 50 PSI in the system and 25 PSI inside the tank, you may be able to recover another few PSI. Otherwise .. there are methods such as using an external compressor with a dryer ( basically a home made recovery machine ) to cycle the refrigerant back into the tank under pressure - and a vacuum pump to pull vapor off the tank and cycle it back in as a liquid under pressure. It's a little tricky but it is possible. Although I wouldn't expect to be able to recover 100% like you would with a machine.

There are a number of other tools we use in the trade such as a micron gauge to determine moisture content / vacuum condition, and a scale to weigh out the refrigerant. Usually in the field I can pull up to 25 pounds of liquid into a system using a deep vacuum, depending on the volume of pipe, and then if any additional refrigerant is required, the system can be ran and charged through the vapor line on the low side. you might do the same with an automotive system - after vacuum, charge liquid on the high pressure side and if it won't take any more refrigerant ( it probably wasn't pulled into vacuum deep enough ) - charge as a vapor on the low side. If you are using 12 oz cans and the system requires an additonal 8 oz; the only way to know for sure is with a scale; otherwise a pressure / temperature chart may be used to make an educated guess but it's not going to be exact.

 

[Grog6]

I socked in two cases of freon of each type when they outlawed r-12 and R-22. I sold the last few cans of that stuff to pay for a semester of college. I had a gallon of freon TF in the 80's, it was the ultimate VCR head cleaner. I still have two cans of it, stashed, so I can work on MY stuff. I'm going to hook up my killer VCR with the new stereo; I should be able to record stuff again now.

 

[dDUBb]

when they outlawed r-12 and R-22.

They never outlawed R12 or R22; they just stopped manufacturing it. It's still available. Just like those VHS tape; they stopped making them, doesn't mean they're outlawed.

 

[Grog6]

I looked at my list; I sold the last two cans, one of each, for $500, in 2006. Paid $1.00 each. In 1991.

 

[dDUBb]

R113 aka Freon TF .. okay, thats not the same as the other refrigerants.

 

[Grog6]

It's a solvent, no residue, and doesn't pull moisture from the air.

 

[theterminator93]

I need to get stocked up on some R134a to keep handy this year. Though it sounds like R1234yf is a functional replacement - I imagine a flush/oil replacement would be necessary rather than assuming it can top off systems with R134a and PAG oil still present.

I'm a bit skeptical of vendors hocking 30lb tanks of R134a for $100 without an EPA license requirement.

 

[dDUBb]

Though it sounds like R1234yf is a functional replacement

It's better all around, also .. 10x more expensive.