Mecum Auction

[GRWeldon]

I'm watching the Kissimmee auction from 2 weeks ago. The 1970-74 Barracuda is my absolute favorite car, hands down. I had a lowly '70 318 3-speed and loved it.

Anyway, the 1970 'Cuda on now is a 440 six-pack. They say it's one of 902 made in that configuration. It sold for $110,000.

I know it's probably way more of a desirable car because of the almost 400 HP, but do you think in another 25 years that one of the 94 or 95 5-speed SCs might be worth that much (inflation notwithstanding)? Either of those were both lower (by hundreds) in production numbers....

 

[XR7-4.6]

I hope not. I used to love those cars but since baby boomers think their mere possession of them is an investment for their retirement I can’t even look at them anymore. These auctions ruined this hobby

They didn’t even have almost 400 horsepower, gross ratings ended in 1972, a 440 6 pack was 330 net

 

[Kenz]

I don't think MN12's have ever been popular enough to end up as valuable as a rare 60-70s muscle car. The pre-70s are special because they are the last of the real muscle cars with their less smog restricted, high compression, big V8's...

OTOH it seems like some 80s-90s cars that are not really considered "fast" or sporty models have been getting more popular and going up in value. The fact that new cars now are so much faster than they were in the past has something to do with it. Most all older vehicles are now slow by modern standards. That makes some of the cars that would have been less desirable 10-15 years ago, something that people would consider collecting.

I think that is part of the reason our cars in nice condition are going for double or triple what they were 10 years ago. They are still fairly inexpensive, but the average sale price definitely has gone up more than the recent huge inflation rate.

 

[97teebs]

I think inflation has alot to do with cars going up in general. People can't afford new cars and new car insurance but they can afford older cars in decent shape and that's cheaper on their insurance as well. I've always been too poor to have a new car so it's normal for me to have an old car. I had a 76 Maverick in 96 cause that's all I could afford type thing.

 

[XR7-4.6]

I don't think MN12's have ever been popular enough to end up as valuable as a rare 60-70s muscle car. The pre-70s are special because they are the last of the real muscle cars with their less smog restricted, high compression, big V8's...

OTOH it seems like some 80s-90s cars that are not really considered "fast" or sporty models have been getting more popular and going up in value. The fact that new cars now are so much faster than they were in the past has something to do with it. Most all older vehicles are now slow by modern standards. That makes some of the cars that would have been less desirable 10-15 years ago, something that people would consider collecting.

I think that is part of the reason our cars in nice condition are going for double or triple what they were 10 years ago. They are still fairly inexpensive, but the average sale price definitely has gone up more than the recent huge inflation rate.

I think what modern performance revealed to a lot of people is that speed was in fact not everything. A Tesla is faster than literally every classic muscle car and a good amount of current (or recently departed) modern muscle… but who the fuck wants that silent combustible egg shaped appliance that vaguely drives itself? That’s where you see the currently booming collector market in broncos, blazers, various pickups and VW vans soar. Like muscle cars few current vehicles match them, but without that BS dick measuring stat of horsepower and quarter mile time to rationalize the value.

A lot of it too I think has to do with speculation, the fox body mustang market is getting stupid and I think it has a lot to do with attrition, these cars were the successors to the classic era muscle cars and I think the same investors are the ones buying them for ever inflating values, but their value I suspect is hinged on the classic muscle car market’s bubble not bursting, which I personally suspect is on the ragged edge of happening. If you’re suddenly able to buy a 70 Boss 429 for under $50k how much should a 87 5.0 hatch go for, really? The classics will always command a premium because as you said there’s that pre reg/smog and safety free artistic freedom distinction going for them, but when that market adjusts where will that leave the “post 74” stuff? There’s all sorts of cars from that to present I love and admire, but no way would a single one top something like a second gen Charger or 60s GTO in terms of my personal monetary value.

 

[rampagingsloth]

I think what modern performance revealed to a lot of people is that speed was in fact not everything. A Tesla is faster than literally every classic muscle car and a good amount of current (or recently departed) modern muscle… but who the fuck wants that silent combustible egg shaped appliance that vaguely drives itself? That’s where you see the currently booming collector market in broncos, blazers, various pickups and VW vans soar. Like muscle cars few current vehicles match them, but without that BS dick measuring stat of horsepower and quarter mile time to rationalize the value.

That's the thing that confuses me about our cars. Whenever I'm asked why I would want/own my Thunderbird I have to explain that it's basically a bigger, better-looking Mustang - same (basic) engine, transmission and rear end. And ours have IRS! Since I'm not a midget I prefer the extra interior space, too, and I love the early '70s pony car silhouette. They understand but they don't "see" it. Yet. I think down the road they might get a bit more desirable as that reality gets noticed.

I am baffled by how stupid or merely similar to modern cars the new EVs look like. Until the new electric (with a straight six ICE option) Dodge Charger was announced (with only 2 doors, thank Odin!!), there wasn't a single EV or hybrid I would look at twice. Performance isn't everything, obviously, since most of my favorite muscle cars weren't anything amazing on winding roads. This thing looks like a Charger! I mean, it's like 85% there, which is far closer than the previous 4-door Chrysler 300 with a body kit Charger could get in its wildest dreams.

A lot of it too I think has to do with speculation, the fox body mustang market is getting stupid and I think it has a lot to do with attrition, these cars were the successors to the classic era muscle cars and I think the same investors are the ones buying them for ever inflating values, but their value I suspect is hinged on the classic muscle car market’s bubble not bursting, which I personally suspect is on the ragged edge of happening. If you’re suddenly able to buy a 70 Boss 429 for under $50k how much should a 87 5.0 hatch go for, really? The classics will always command a premium because as you said there’s that pre reg/smog and safety free artistic freedom distinction going for them, but when that market adjusts where will that leave the “post 74” stuff? There’s all sorts of cars from that to present I love and admire, but no way would a single one top something like a second gen Charger or 60s GTO in terms of my personal monetary value.

Agreed. I think the general public sees it that way, too, all you have to do is see what "cool" cars most typical main characters in movies drive. I mean recent movies. The first Jack Reacher movie had a Camaro and a Chevelle in there. I cannot stand the Fast & Furious franchise but they always include ridiculous muscle cars mixed in with the rice grinders. I still remember Wolverine (Days Of Future Past) driving around in that boat-tail Buick Riviera.

I'm still waiting for the dramatic car chase involving 2 silent EVs gliding through city streets, being able to hear every pedal press and seat adjustment in the turns, hahaahaha.

 

[XR7-4.6]

That's the thing that confuses me about our cars. Whenever I'm asked why I would want/own my Thunderbird I have to explain that it's basically a bigger, better-looking Mustang - same (basic) engine, transmission and rear end. And ours have IRS! Since I'm not a midget I prefer the extra interior space, too, and I love the early '70s pony car silhouette. They understand but they don't "see" it. Yet. I think down the road they might get a bit more desirable as that reality gets noticed.

Anybody I have to explain why I have a car to is just clearly not a real car person. This is an irrational hobby, we’re weirdos who find character in 30 year old inanimate objects originally designed by their manufacturers to last maybe 10 years… and we almost all universally find cars that are technically superior and long lasting “soulless appliances” lol

And the reality is all those muscle cars were considered dinosaurs at a time, owning one in the 70s-80s damn near got you labeled anti-social at best and trailer trash at worst. Were the owners of 440 Cudas when they were still four digit used cars trying to justify their technical prowess to the yuppies driving BMW E21s? God no, but those people cared about image(as do most current day new BMW et al owners), real car enthusiasts don’t give a crap about image or financial flex. The people who bucked the trends in those days with their old dinosaurs were the ones who made muscle cars cool in the end, well before this auction nonsense. We take pride in our personal machines but it’s to impress ourselves first and foremost.

Edit: Getting really nitty gritty into it; mopars with their torsion bars and offset leaf spring suspensions was something of a technical wonder of the day in handling when it was introduced in 57 and underpinning every A/B/C body through the 70s, akin to the MN12s RWD IRS for the time period, but who really truly praises those cars handling from todays vantage? For the most part they get lumped into the rest as straight line performers. Think Cudas sell for six or even seven figures in ragtop form for that merit today? Eh no.

The truth is until the second gen GM F bodies mopars were actually among the best handling cars of the big three, but it’s the billboards and bumblebee stripes and Hemis that truly sell them for a massive fortune today.

I'm still waiting for the dramatic car chase involving 2 silent EVs gliding through city streets, being able to hear every pedal press and seat adjustment in the turns, hahaahaha.

I’m just happy the spectacular explosions after a crash will finally be realistic

 

[GRWeldon]

To be honest, I own a Supercoupe because I like the way it handles. It's not now and never will be a powerhouse. In all actuality, the 1970 Barracuda I had with a 318 in it was probably around 270 HP...just guessing. That would make it the most powerful car that I've ever owned. I didn't have any money to spare in the early 80s to grab one of these older Mopars, Pontiacs, Oldsmobiles or Chevys when they were able to be had. I was overseas playing soldier for a meager wage less than $10K/year. When I got out in '86 I had even less money raising two children with my wife on a single salary. It wasn't until the 2010s that I had disposable income but no time to spend it because I was working all the time, either for somebody or for myself developing my homestead. Now I'm 62 and blessed to not owe anybody anything except property taxes, but I don't have much disposable income. I completely missed the musclecar era and I'm not very likely to get the chance to participate.

I fell in love with my first Cougar...a 1995 V6. Strictly a GM person for the previous 18 years. Owned it for 6 months, then I wrecked it. First accident in 20 years. Insurance paid because I financed and I bought a 95 V8 Cougar. 4 years later I bought my SC and I was happy to have a 5-speed. To me, I'm pretending that these cars are musclecars, even with modern NA V6s surpassing the power of our dinky 4.6 V8s. My wife's 2016 Acura RDX has 270HP...supposedly. It's quick, but it doesn't feel like SC quick to me.

Anyway... I'd still like to have a 1971 Hemi 'Cuda. They aren't unobtainium but depending on the options, they ARE six-figures, all day long. I could NEVER justify that kind of expense. Much too extravagant for the lifestyle I lead...

Edit: just looked up the numbers for a 1970 318 CI V8. Until 1971 HP numbers were measured without accessories... wonder if that includes the water pump...hmmm. Anyway, they were 230HP at 4400 RPM, 340 ft.lbs. torque at 2400 RPM. Accessories would rob some of that, I don't know how much. So actually, the numbers are very similar to a pre-1994 SC. 94/95 would be just a tiny bit higher. Interesting.

 

[XR7-4.6]

To be honest, I own a Supercoupe because I like the way it handles. It's not now and never will be a powerhouse. In all actuality, the 1970 Barracuda I had with a 318 in it was probably around 270 HP...just guessing. That would make it the most powerful car that I've ever owned. I didn't have any money to spare in the early 80s to grab one of these older Mopars, Pontiacs, Oldsmobiles or Chevys when they were able to be had. I was overseas playing soldier for a meager wage less than $10K/year. When I got out in '86 I had even less money raising two children with my wife on a single salary. It wasn't until the 2010s that I had disposable income but no time to spend it because I was working all the time, either for somebody or for myself developing my homestead. Now I'm 62 and blessed to not owe anybody anything except property taxes, but I don't have much disposable income. I completely missed the musclecar era and I'm not very likely to get the chance to participate.

I fell in love with my first Cougar...a 1995 V6. Strictly a GM person for the previous 18 years. Owned it for 6 months, then I wrecked it. First accident in 20 years. Insurance paid because I financed and I bought a 95 V8 Cougar. 4 years later I bought my SC and I was happy to have a 5-speed. To me, I'm pretending that these cars are musclecars, even with modern NA V6s surpassing the power of our dinky 4.6 V8s. My wife's 2016 Acura RDX has 270HP...supposedly. It's quick, but it doesn't feel like SC quick to me.

Anyway... I'd still like to have a 1971 Hemi 'Cuda. They aren't unobtainium but depending on the options, they ARE six-figures, all day long. I could NEVER justify that kind of expense. Much too extravagant for the lifestyle I lead...

Edit: just looked up the numbers for a 1970 318 CI V8. Until 1971 HP numbers were measured without accessories... wonder if that includes the water pump...hmmm. Anyway, they were 230HP at 4400 RPM, 340 ft.lbs. torque at 2400 RPM. Accessories would rob some of that, I don't know how much. So actually, the numbers are very similar to a pre-1994 SC. 94/95 would be just a tiny bit higher. Interesting.

The 1971 publications listed both the gross and net ratings, the 318 made 155 net, which is closer to the 3.8 NA



Gross was grossly unrealistic, indeed no water pump, or any accessories, free flowing exhaust, free flowing intake, ideal conditions for the engine all by itself to in a lab environment. Net ratings includes all that stuff, but it’s still rated at the crank output rather than the wheels where more losses can be observed.

 

[rampagingsloth]

Anybody I have to explain why I have a car to is just clearly not a real car person. This is an irrational hobby, we’re weirdos who find character in 30 year old inanimate objects originally designed by their manufacturers to last maybe 10 years… and we almost all universally find cars that are technically superior and long lasting “soulless appliances” lol

In general I agree but I'm talking about people who are into muscle cars who don't understand my attraction to my '95 Thunderbird. They think, why didn't you get the Mustang (or a Camaro) instead if you wanted a new car (my Thunderbird was the first car I bought new from a dealership), it's a better performance option. Yes. And no. I mean whatever my car is lacking can be addressed with parts and machine shop work since they both share the same basic engine/trans/rear. I can bolt on the Mustang brakes and I can get the engine hopped up (or swapped) and the transmission improved. More work, but probably less than trying to make an SN95 Mustang look like a real Mustang so I'll stick with the Thunderbird.

I’m just happy the spectacular explosions after a crash will finally be realistic

Oh ya, that road flare fire will be cool, especially getting one started that burns underwater. But can imagine how weird a car chase between 2 EVs would sound? Outside, just tire sounds. Inside, pedals and heavy breathing and maybe upholstery shifting. Possibly a passenger talking or sneezing or whatever. Nothing about that would be cool.

 

[XR7-4.6]

In general I agree but I'm talking about people who are into muscle cars who don't understand my attraction to my '95 Thunderbird. They think, why didn't you get the Mustang (or a Camaro) instead if you wanted a new car (my Thunderbird was the first car I bought new from a dealership), it's a better performance option. Yes. And no. I mean whatever my car is lacking can be addressed with parts and machine shop work since they both share the same basic engine/trans/rear. I can bolt on the Mustang brakes and I can get the engine hopped up (or swapped) and the transmission improved. More work, but probably less than trying to make an SN95 Mustang look like a real Mustang so I'll stick with the Thunderbird.

Well I’d say my point still stands… They aren’t real car people, they’re poseurs. They have classic muscle cars because they’re trying to relive their high school fantasy’s or they’re into the new stuff for the same reason but to be the current day rich boys(of age)with the latest and greatest they were jealous of when it supposedly mattered.

Me personally I always considered myself more of a hot rodder, or at the very least a lead sled guy since I’m not obsessed with speed. In Two lane Blacktop Warren Oats with his brand new GTO judge was a poseur, his whole persona was one of lies and fantasies revolving around his expensive and fancy GTO to random hitchhikers, where James Taylor and Dennis Wilson’s ugly primered big block 55 sucked all the doors off all the then-new “muscle cars” that all looked the same to them. My Cougar is not that by a long stretch but I much more relate to the latter characters who built their machine than bought their machine, and that’s kind of the mentality you have to have with these more obscure cars I think.

Oh ya, that road flare fire will be cool, especially getting one started that burns underwater. But can imagine how weird a car chase between 2 EVs would sound? Outside, just tire sounds. Inside, pedals and heavy breathing and maybe upholstery shifting. Possibly a passenger talking or sneezing or whatever. Nothing about that would be cool.

Reminds me of the trailer for some Tom Cruise movie several years back where the audio was messed up and he was in a crashing airplane and all you heard were his grunts lol

Edit: the Mummy