2028 Ford Thunderbird: Should The Iconic T-Bird Rise From The Ashes As An EV?

XR7-4.6 said:
I can't believe premium is only 20 cents more from regular, while its a full dollar more here.

I know I shouldn't complain since even with the extra dollar it's "only" $4.50 a gallon but it just goes to show how bullshit it all is. Supply and demand my ass, it's just trolls under the bridge.
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That's how Alabama is. Drives me nuts whenever I have to get Premium there.

Knoxville is around $3.30 for 87. Lenoir City (just across the county line) is around $3.10-3.15 for 87. I filled up the Fusion at the station near my house for $3.08 last Thursday.
 
XR7-4.6 said:
In fairness the current Charger and Challenger would eat into each others sales and shrink the market if both were 2 doors, which is exactly why the 1970s E bodies were considered failures. The Charger was already dodge's "ponycar", a massive 117 wheelbase one but that was its role for Dodge in the 60s, the Challenger was redundant(and it too was still big for the segment). I still think the current gen Charger's styling is good in spite of the door count, it's a modern design with signature touches rather than a tracing paper retro design which I appreciate. I have as high regard for the 68-69 Charger as anyone(although the current pricing puts them into overrated territory for me now) but I also like the first and third gens quite a bit too. I even like the 69 500 with the buttresses filled in with a aero window plug(not a fan of the Coronet nose though)
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I don't see that at all, at least not according to the fans at car shows (especially Mopar-specific shows) I've been to. I mean, yes, the E-bodies were slightly too big (to easily accommodate the big blocks) but nobody was looking at the Charger as a ponycar. Obviously too big. I agree that it was unique in its looks and social status compared to the other B-bodies but the general public saw the 'Cuda and Challenger as ponycars, just not as cool/popular as the already-established market dominating Mustangs and Camaros and Firebirds. I mean, even the Cougar was a ponycar sister to the Mustang and it was a relative failure, too (and slightly bigger?). But not because buyers saw some Mercury Montego as a ponycar or something. Ponycar is specific in terms of size (smaller than intermediate), if a Charger is a ponycar then so is every other B-body intermediate in the line. Which then includes Road Runners and GTXs. Mopar was racing 'Cudas and Challengers (not B-bodies) in Trans Am races against other ponycars. Of course the AMC Javelins complicate that but they were pretty small for intermediates, they could compete (and did). Trying to race a Charger in that racing series would have been a titanic waste of time.

The 1st-gen Chargers weren't bad, but they were clearly Coronets with some last-minute fastback idea slapped on that didn't really fit the rest of the car (square as shit). The bend of the back part was wrong, started too far back, etc. They obviously fixed that in '68, goddamn what a beautiful car!! A subtle massaging of that back slope and it's iconic. The original was egh. We shall not discuss the import that simply had a Charger name stuck onto it! Ya, the Charger 500 was not nearly as stylish but probably much better on banked ovals. The 3rd-gen Chargers tried too hard to be sleek, they looked like giant Corvettes, which to my eyes is the same as seeing a grown man accurately dressed like a Boy Scout. You cut maybe a half foot off the front (get rid of that pointy 'Vette nose vibe), fix the back window area (no sloped rear glass, add back in the flying buttresses), it would be right again.

The current Charger was a direct offshoot of the then-new Chrysler 300, which was itself a modern throwback to the boxy luxury cars of olde. And a bit of a cheap rip-off of a Bentley. So that made sense, as did the Magnum. But the new Charger looking like a 300 with a body kit was terrible looking as a Charger. As a Magnum Sedan, sure, nice car. But a Charger is sleek, it's got style (the rear window area specifically), it doesn't look like a loaf of bread.

And now that EV concept, oh my god! The hips look right (similar to the older 1999 Charger concept car), much of the rest of the body looks right (minus that industry standard bottom of the fenders/rockers extending too far down), 2 and only 2 doors goddammit, wide rectangular grille, aaaaaahhhhhhhhh. I mean, an enterprising insane person (a hero, let's call him) could buy one of those and probably separate the body from the guts and force it to fit onto a current Challenger or Charger chassis, depending on the length.

XR7-4.6 said:
I'll never relent on the fake engine noise not being totally and completely :BMW: are gearshifts going to be fake piped in too? Or is it one continuously progressing vvvvvvvvvvrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrooooooooooommmmmmmmmmm from 0-100mph? Either answer is stupid.
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I agree, but it appears to be the future of silent EV cars (in terms of mods). From what I've seen of at least one idea, the sound is calibrated to the pedal position and gear changes (if there is such a thing in an EV). I still think having a highway gear for an EV is a good idea, multiply the RPMs for improved mileage and motor life. The episode of All Girls Garage where they installed one of those (Borla?) onto an EV (the Mustang Mach-E, I think) was "impressive", meaning it did mostly sound like a real car, not some toy version, and it sounded convincing outside the car (where it would actually be sort of useful). They raced it against an ICE Mustang. Personally I would prefer some future sci-fi sounds for an EV, like it's a vehicle from Star Wars, but still calibrated to the pedal and useful as a warning to pedestrians and kids.

 
rampagingsloth said:
I don't see that at all, at least not according to the fans at car shows (especially Mopar-specific shows) I've been to. I mean, yes, the E-bodies were slightly too big (to easily accommodate the big blocks) but nobody was looking at the Charger as a ponycar. Obviously too big. I agree that it was unique in its looks and social status compared to the other B-bodies but the general public saw the 'Cuda and Challenger as ponycars, just not as cool/popular as the already-established market dominating Mustangs and Camaros and Firebirds. I mean, even the Cougar was a ponycar sister to the Mustang and it was a relative failure, too (and slightly bigger?). But not because buyers saw some Mercury Montego as a ponycar or something. Ponycar is specific in terms of size (smaller than intermediate), if a Charger is a ponycar then so is every other B-body intermediate in the line. Which then includes Road Runners and GTXs. Mopar was racing 'Cudas and Challengers (not B-bodies) in Trans Am races against other ponycars. Of course the AMC Javelins complicate that but they were pretty small for intermediates, they could compete (and did). Trying to race a Charger in that racing series would have been a titanic waste of time.

The 1st-gen Chargers weren't bad, but they were clearly Coronets with some last-minute fastback idea slapped on that didn't really fit the rest of the car (square as shit). The bend of the back part was wrong, started too far back, etc. They obviously fixed that in '68, goddamn what a beautiful car!! A subtle massaging of that back slope and it's iconic. The original was egh. We shall not discuss the import that simply had a Charger name stuck onto it! Ya, the Charger 500 was not nearly as stylish but probably much better on banked ovals. The 3rd-gen Chargers tried too hard to be sleek, they looked like giant Corvettes, which to my eyes is the same as seeing a grown man accurately dressed like a Boy Scout. You cut maybe a half foot off the front (get rid of that pointy 'Vette nose vibe), fix the back window area (no sloped rear glass, add back in the flying buttresses), it would be right again.

The current Charger was a direct offshoot of the then-new Chrysler 300, which was itself a modern throwback to the boxy luxury cars of olde. And a bit of a cheap rip-off of a Bentley. So that made sense, as did the Magnum. But the new Charger looking like a 300 with a body kit was terrible looking as a Charger. As a Magnum Sedan, sure, nice car. But a Charger is sleek, it's got style (the rear window area specifically), it doesn't look like a loaf of bread.

And now that EV concept, oh my god! The hips look right (similar to the older 1999 Charger concept car), much of the rest of the body looks right (minus that industry standard bottom of the fenders/rockers extending too far down), 2 and only 2 doors goddammit, wide rectangular grille, aaaaaahhhhhhhhh. I mean, an enterprising insane person (a hero, let's call him) could buy one of those and probably separate the body from the guts and force it to fit onto a current Challenger or Charger chassis, depending on the length.



I agree, but it appears to be the future of silent EV cars (in terms of mods). From what I've seen of at least one idea, the sound is calibrated to the pedal position and gear changes (if there is such a thing in an EV). I still think having a highway gear for an EV is a good idea, multiply the RPMs for improved mileage and motor life. The episode of All Girls Garage where they installed one of those (Borla?) onto an EV (the Mustang Mach-E, I think) was "impressive", meaning it did mostly sound like a real car, not some toy version, and it sounded convincing outside the car (where it would actually be sort of useful). They raced it against a ICE Mustang. Personally I would prefer some future sci-fi sounds for an EV, like it's a vehicle from Star Wars, but still calibrated to the pedal and useful as a warning to pedestrians and kids.

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Regarding the Charger I wholeheartedly agree it’s not a ponycar… BUT that really was Dodge’s intention when you look into the history of the model. Dodge wanted in on the booming ponycar market but Plymouth blocked them(rightfully) concerned that another specialty A body would eat into the Barracuda’s market share. The 66 Charger really is essentially the Barracuda concept applied to the B body, that was Dodge’s workaround and the result is kind of it’s own thing(one the Monte Carlo would eventually copy but that’s another discussion).

The Charger was successful for Dodge particularly in 1968-69, they didn’t really need a formulaic ponycar. The 70 Challenger upset it though, Charger sales HALVED in 1970 and the Challenger failed to meet sales targets, the correlation is hard to ignore to draw the conclusion that the original challenger siphoned off Charger sales and that the Charger’s continuance retained enough sales to fall the Challenger short of its projections. I don’t care what present day mopar fans have to say, the original first buyers of these cars have shuffled off this mortal coil.

All girls garage is paid to upsell those baseball card in spokes engine sounds, remember. All these motortrend shows are just like the old rags that preceded them. For me without the accompanying vibrations only an ICE can create it’s basically the experience of playing a dumb video game, complete with a shitty lcd gauge cluster.

IMO the Challenger looks more compromised by the 300 roots, it’s way too block and tall when directly compared to the original E body, the Charger looked compromised by it in the 07-10(?) bodystyle. But the 11 and especially 15 restyles made it a lot sleeker
 
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It is a bit troublesome that teenagers could potentially drive a silent high powered car, and like you're saying, doesn't seem good that they're disconnecting the tactile feedbacks that remind you it's not a simulation. This is one of the reasons I prefer to drive with windows down or cracked
 
We shall not discuss the import that simply had a Charger name stuck onto it!
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Wait, are you referring to the 80s ones like the Shelby GLHS was based on? Those weren’t imports, they were Chrysler designs, derived from the Omni(ok technically Simca Chrysler, but there’s a lot of Daimler in the latter day LX platforms too). Are you thinking of the Challenger? Those were indeed Mitsubishi based
 
I thought their ponycar was the Duster? They even had a version with a 440 and a six-pack, a neighbor had one. Every duster I knew of broke the torsion front springs. :)
 
The Barracuda was the Ponycar, the Duster(and demon) was sort of Chrysler's Nova, they were mostly econoboxes. The biggest FACTORY engine you could get in them was the 340
 
XR7-4.6 said:
Regarding the Charger I wholeheartedly agree it’s not a ponycar… BUT that really was Dodge’s intention when you look into the history of the model. Dodge wanted in on the booming ponycar market but Plymouth blocked them(rightfully) concerned that another specialty A body would eat into the Barracuda’s market share. The 66 Charger really is essentially the Barracuda concept applied to the B body, that was Dodge’s workaround and the result is kind of it’s own thing(one the Monte Carlo would eventually copy but that’s another discussion).

The Charger was successful for Dodge particularly in 1968-69, they didn’t really need a formulaic ponycar. The 70 Challenger upset it though, Charger sales HALVED in 1970 and the Challenger failed to meet sales targets, the correlation is hard to ignore to draw the conclusion that the original challenger siphoned off Charger sales and that the Charger’s continuance retained enough sales to fall the Challenger short of its projections. I don’t care what present day mopar fans have to say, the original first buyers of these cars have shuffled off this mortal coil.
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I agree that that was the sales intent of the Charger vs. other cars. If the E-bodies never showed up and the Valiants and Darts and whatnot had been the only options, along with the Dusters, that would have made more sense but I'm glad the E-bodies showed up, they're easily my favorite looking ponycars.

XR7-4.6 said:
ll girls garage is paid to upsell those baseball card in spokes engine sounds, remember. All these motortrend shows are just like the old rags that preceded them. For me without the accompanying vibrations only an ICE can create it’s basically the experience of playing a dumb video game, complete with a shitty lcd gauge cluster.
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True, but they do legitimate repairs/updates to cars as well, it's not all worthless mods. I can go on at length with my disappointments with each particular show but in general they show what's possible doing legitimate upgrades along with the chaff.

XR7-4.6 said:
IMO the Challenger looks more compromised by the 300 roots, it’s way too block and tall when directly compared to the original E body, the Charger looked compromised by it in the 07-10(?) bodystyle. But the 11 and especially 15 restyles made it a lot sleeker
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Agreed, but they're all blocky as fuck (Camaros and now even Mustangs), mostly because of whatever that mandate or trend is to raise the bottom of the window line (along with the how high the hood and trunk also go) for safety. Every line is affected by that ugly change. Add to that the trend of crossovers or whatever those rolling shoe-looking not-quite-SUVs are.
 
Demon! that was it! It ad a decal of the tazmanian devil, iirc.
 
XR7-4.6 said:
The Barracuda was the Ponycar, the Duster(and demon) was sort of Chrysler's Nova, they were mostly econoboxes. The biggest FACTORY engine you could get in them was the 340
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Yes, those boxy cars are the compacts. The GM group (Nova/Omega/Ventura/Apollo), the Mopar group (Duster/Dart) were all considered compacts purely because they were smaller than intermediates. The ponycars were something else, basically stylish almost-compacts. The Mustang was born out of the Falcon, shared many parts. All those early ponycars kept growing and by '70 when the Mopars showed up the size had increased so being just a little bit bigger than the competition wasn't that much bigger. But it would have been in '65 for sure.
 
All those old cars were blocky, with a hood big enough to close a blanket on, and have a party! and it didn't even dent the hood. :) It's kinda weird that I worked with two people years later, that saw me butt nekkid, lol. Different places and times, but still lol.
 
XR7-4.6 said:
Wait, are you referring to the 80s ones like the Shelby GLHS was based on? Those weren’t imports, they were Chrysler designs, derived from the Omni(ok technically Simca Chrysler, but there’s a lot of Daimler in the latter day LX platforms too). Are you thinking of the Challenger? Those were indeed Mitsubishi based
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Oooh, you're probably right there. But I was probably confused and mistook one for the other because they are not to be spoken of!! If we can't speak of them then we forget what was what. Gladly, hahahaa.
 
I agree that that was the sales intent of the Charger vs. other cars. If the E-bodies never showed up and the Valiants and Darts and whatnot had been the only options, along with the Dusters, that would have made more sense but I'm glad the E-bodies showed up, they're easily my favorite looking ponycars.
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I agree, they're like the MN12s, good for us, bad for the company that made them. The Duster really put a whooping to the E body Cuda's sales too.



Agreed, but they're all blocky as fuck (Camaros and now even Mustangs), mostly because of whatever that mandate or trend is to raise the bottom of the window line (along with the how high the hood and trunk also go) for safety. Every line is affected by that ugly change. Add to that the trend of crossovers or whatever those rolling shoe-looking not-quite-SUVs are.
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Amen. I don't know if it's really mandated safety or the perception of safety but there's nothing I find truly good looking on the market today, just bits and pieces because of the weird proportions. Thats probably why I'm easy on the Charger, its got good elements to it and overall its about the best looking large 4 door you can get.


Yes, those boxy cars are the compacts. The GM group (Nova/Omega/Ventura/Apollo), the Mopar group (Duster/Dart) were all considered compacts purely because they were smaller than intermediates. The ponycars were something else, basically stylish almost-compacts. The Mustang was born out of the Falcon, shared many parts. All those early ponycars kept growing and by '70 when the Mopars showed up the size had increased so being just a little bit bigger than the competition wasn't that much bigger. But it would have been in '65 for sure.
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Yeah that's pretty much it. Ironically the Duster's fastbackish body isn't all that far off from the 64-69 Barracuda really, but the standard package was just plain economy car, where Barracudas and most other ponycars had sporty and a few upmarket options standard.

Size creep is nothing new. Modern day "compacts" are huge in their own ways too, and freaking heavy!
 
The contour I had was not a light car, and pushed the front end in curves badly. I sold it with the koni's and lowering stuff in the trunk, for vet bills. But the 2l engine with dohc, imrcs, and variable valve timing was cool over 3krpm.
 
XR7-4.6 said:
I agree, they're like the MN12s, good for us, bad for the company that made them. The Duster really put a whooping to the E body Cuda's sales too.
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Absolutely. I think one of the dumbest things that Ford ever did was turn the little Thunderbird into a full-size aircraft carrier and then compounded it by swapping the Cougar to be the sister car and ruining that nameplate forever! Neither car was ever conceived of being that gigantic. And then they reassigned the Capri as the new Mercury Cougar, meaning the sister to the Mustang. I'm not a fan of the Fox body cars but, if I ever decided to buy one, I'd track down a Capri since I prefer those fenders and the grille, and I put "Cougar" nameplates on it, hahaaha. Suck ass, Ford, you were wrong!


If they'd just fucking named the MN12s as Ford Torinos and Mercury Cyclones or whatever, all would be forgiven. But the "name" doesn't sell. Sure, but neither does it sell looking nothing like the name you slapped on it, dummies! A Cougar is supposed to look like a slightly bigger, classier Mustang, not a capital ship!

XR7-4.6 said:
Amen. I don't know if it's really mandated safety or the perception of safety but there's nothing I find truly good looking on the market today, just bits and pieces because of the weird proportions. Thats probably why I'm easy on the Charger, its got good elements to it and overall its about the best looking large 4 door you can get.
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They're all overweight. Yes, that look fits the 4-door "Charger" because it's based off the Chrysler 300 which could have that big sedan look, puffy and snub-nosed. I don't remember any actual Chrysler 300s looking like Bentleys but at least that look already existed as an upscale sedan which was the 300's target.

XR7-4.6 said:
Yeah that's pretty much it. Ironically the Duster's fastbackish body isn't all that far off from the 64-69 Barracuda really, but the standard package was just plain economy car, where Barracudas and most other ponycars had sporty and a few upmarket options standard.

Size creep is nothing new. Modern day "compacts" are huge in their own ways too, and freaking heavy!
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Ya, the Duster/Dart fastbacks look like big-booty Novas with those hips, hahaaha. But it's a cool car design, just less so than the E-bodies. I'd rather drive a '69 Dart, looks like a midget Road Runner. Of course, so does an older Nissan Skyline but I draw the line at 6-cylinder engines.



www.reddit.com

https://i.redd.it/7h7wngor99r41.png

www.reddit.com www.reddit.com

A '69 Dart is to a '69 Road Runner as the Prinz Eugen was to the Bismarck.
 
rampagingsloth said:
Absolutely. I think one of the dumbest things that Ford ever did was turn the little Thunderbird into a full-size aircraft carrier and then compounded it by swapping the Cougar to be the sister car and ruining that nameplate forever! Neither car was ever conceived of being that gigantic. And then they reassigned the Capri as the new Mercury Cougar, meaning the sister to the Mustang. I'm not a fan of the Fox body cars but, if I ever decided to buy one, I'd track down a Capri since I prefer those fenders and the grille, and I put "Cougar" nameplates on it, hahaaha. Suck ass, Ford, you were wrong!


If they'd just fucking named the MN12s as Ford Torinos and Mercury Cyclones or whatever, all would be forgiven. But the "name" doesn't sell. Sure, but neither does it sell looking nothing like the name you slapped on it, dummies! A Cougar is supposed to look like a slightly bigger, classier Mustang, not a capital ship!



They're all overweight. Yes, that look fits the 4-door "Charger" because it's based off the Chrysler 300 which could have that big sedan look, puffy and snub-nosed. I don't remember any actual Chrysler 300s looking like Bentleys but at least that look already existed as an upscale sedan which was the 300's target.



Ya, the Duster/Dart fastbacks look like big-booty Novas with those hips, hahaaha. But it's a cool car design, just less so than the E-bodies. I'd rather drive a '69 Dart, looks like a midget Road Runner. Of course, so does an older Nissan Skyline but I draw the line at 6-cylinder engines.



www.reddit.com

https://i.redd.it/7h7wngor99r41.png

www.reddit.com www.reddit.com

A '69 Dart is to a '69 Road Runner as the Prinz Eugen was to the Bismarck.
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The weird thing with those Fox Capris is some of them had this steering wheel button from the factory:confused2:

1697500756539.png
 
rampagingsloth said:
I agree, but it appears to be the future of silent EV cars (in terms of mods). From what I've seen of at least one idea, the sound is calibrated to the pedal position and gear changes (if there is such a thing in an EV). I still think having a highway gear for an EV is a good idea, multiply the RPMs for improved mileage and motor life. The episode of All Girls Garage where they installed one of those (Borla?) onto an EV (the Mustang Mach-E, I think) was "impressive", meaning it did mostly sound like a real car, not some toy version, and it sounded convincing outside the car (where it would actually be sort of useful). They raced it against an ICE Mustang. Personally I would prefer some future sci-fi sounds for an EV, like it's a vehicle from Star Wars, but still calibrated to the pedal and useful as a warning to pedestrians and kids.

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Some amount of sound (5dBa) is mandated when the vehicle is moving <20MPH. hence, a lot of modern EVs must make spaceship noises
en.wikipedia.org

Electric vehicle warning sounds - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org en.wikipedia.org

A lot of friends have asked me if I will make my project car make fake V8 noises. I simply ask them if they've bought nuticles for their dogs after they had their nuts chopped off (even in dog crazy SF, I've yet to encounter a single nuticle owner).

I don't really care about the noises EVs emit when moving forward (although I did find the noise Priuses made when backing up super annoying), BUT this idea really pisses me off: simulated manuals in EVs

Its not necessary to cut power, simulate stalls, and force shifts for driver engagement. If they are going to make driving like a video game, they should just integrate Pokemon Go into the HUD and let me run over some pikachus.
www.roadandtrack.com

Toyota Will Offer Simulated Manual Transmissions in its EVs

The company showed off a synthetic manual transmission in a Lexus crossover last year.
www.roadandtrack.com www.roadandtrack.com
 
The Prius sound drove me nuts the first time I noticed it, it sounds exactly like metal on metal squeaking, like a train in a curve but softer. I thought I broke it lol
 
Nah its not the reverse beeping noise, that's whatever, it's going forward noise. If you're driving in the left lane with the window down with concrete barriers in the median it's particularly noticeable.
 
gunn said:
Some amount of sound (5dBa) is mandated when the vehicle is moving <20MPH. hence, a lot of modern EVs must make spaceship noises
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Well, <20mph might severely injure me if it hits me the right way but a faster moving EV could kill me especially if I don't even see/hear it coming so that I don't even try to get out of the way. That's why I'd be on board with fake projected sounds, like having a bell around a cat's neck so it can't kill other animals. Hahaha, bell sounds would make it sound like Santa's sled. And if the sounds are too alien I might not even register that it's an EV approaching me in time to dodge out of the way.

gunn said:
I don't really care about the noises EVs emit when moving forward (although I did find the noise Priuses made when backing up super annoying), BUT this idea really pisses me off: simulated manuals in EVs

Its not necessary to cut power, simulate stalls, and force shifts for driver engagement. If they are going to make driving like a video game, they should just integrate Pokemon Go into the HUD and let me run over some pikachus.
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Huh. That's weird, I mean because there shouldn't be any change in acceleration or RPMs when driving one of those such that a shift sound would fit. But having a fake stick, ok, that forces the shift sound/engine RPM sound change, I guess, but does it actually change how fast the car goes, how fast the motor is spinning (like what a real stick-shift car would do when shifting?) and I suppose there's no clutch pedal that goes along with that, right? It would be funny if that became like Guitar Hero, meaning that people who fake shift driving an EV now believe they can drive an actual manual transmission car (the same way some retards playing Guitar Hero really think they're most of the way to being able to play a real guitar, they think they're musicians, hahaahahaha) with hilarious results when they attempt the real thing.
 
XR7-4.6 said:
The weird thing with those Fox Capris is some of them had this steering wheel button from the factory:confused2:

View attachment 1498
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Dad had a RS302 and it had a Cougar wheel. It was a neat car. They used it as a test bed for the Mustang. One example being that the Capri got EFI on the 302 two years before the Mustang got it. I think they also got the 5-speed with OD before the Mustang did.
 
Also this. Still would pay for this over dealing with an EV.

317EF64B-B74E-4339-B87D-96F26B2DD403.jpeg
 
People have been saying that for 50 years. Although with the way things are going in the middle east right now we might not see that again until 5 years from now.
 
XR7-4.6 said:
The weird thing with those Fox Capris is some of them had this steering wheel button from the factory:confused2:

View attachment 1498
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Mine looks just like that.

Mercury did you the Cougar emblem and an actual cougar for some time for advertising.
 
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