Ford recalling 30K Mustangs

Surprise surprise useless nanny tech bullshit is the issue
 
The more ridiculous tech they put into cars, the more I appreciate older cars. I always loved the 90s/early 00s cars, and despite its limitations, most of the OBD1 stuff wasn’t too bad to diagnose, as long as you understood the system, but as time goes on, I’m becoming a lot more sympathetic to carbs, points, and crank up windows! I would certainly rather deal with those than homocidal computers that randomly decide to turn the wheel in the opposite direction of what it was told!
 
I'm really undecided on this subject...

One of my cars was a 2019 Jetta SEL, which had adaptive cruise and lane centering (the latter activated through OBDeleven). It was simply fantastic to drive on long road trips.

It also had rear automatic braking. One time, I was backing out of a parking spot in the supermarket lot. There was a lady walking behind my car. I had seen her; I knew where she was headed; and I knew that I could proceed backwards slowly without coming anywhere near her.
The Jetta felt otherwise. It stepped on the brakes, which seems harmless at such slow creep, but it's not. The system hits the brakes with full force, which produces an immediate stop accompanied by whatever mechanical noise those actuators make. It was scary.

Curiously, when a loved one is in the process of buying a new car, I tend to point them to a car  with such systems, because i do feel they're safer that way.
 
Safety systems just encourage inattentive drivers. Back in the Day Volvo had a reputation for building the absolute safest cars on the market… they also had the casual reputation of having the worst drivers!

I think the golden era technology wise is early OBD II era; before canbus/BCMs. If it weren’t for the rust monster cars from that period would still be perfectly viable transportation for the masses today. Screw the consumer standards and regs.

Modern Mustangs exude BMW envy these days in their tech. There’s nothing a S550 has that a e46 didn’t over a decade before and owners are still larping “ ‘murican muscle” uh huh. The car I’ve truly learned to appreciate in concept was the Plymouth Roadrunner, bare bones basic with a hot motor and nothing else if you wanted. There’s nothing like that anymore and legally never could be again.
 
XR7-4.6 said:
The car I’ve truly learned to appreciate in concept was the Plymouth Roadrunner, bare bones basic with a hot motor and nothing else if you wanted.
Click to expand...
The 2 door Satellite taxi cab with a 383! I think that was the original idea behind the 64 GTO, light body with the 389 stuffed in there. :shiftin:

Joe
 
Rodeo Joe said:
The 2 door Satellite taxi cab with a 383! I think that was the original idea behind the 64 GTO, light body with the 389 stuffed in there. :shiftin:

Joe
Click to expand...

Light body yes but the GTO was loaded with standard options (buckets, console various trim etc.) and priced to match. The Roadrunner was inexpensive in its day. That’s the big difference between modern muscle and og muscle; regular slobs could afford the old stuff when new. Now it’s all status symbols.
 
XR7-4.6 said:
Safety systems just encourage inattentive drivers. Back in the Day Volvo had a reputation for building the absolute safest cars on the market… they also had the casual reputation of having the worst drivers!

I think the golden era technology wise is early OBD II era; before canbus/BCMs. If it weren’t for the rust monster cars from that period would still be perfectly viable transportation for the masses today. Screw the consumer standards and regs.

Modern Mustangs exude BMW envy these days in their tech. There’s nothing a S550 has that a e46 didn’t over a decade before and owners are still larping “ ‘murican muscle” uh huh. The car I’ve truly learned to appreciate in concept was the Plymouth Roadrunner, bare bones basic with a hot motor and nothing else if you wanted. There’s nothing like that anymore and legally never could be again.
Click to expand...
I have to completely agree with you here. Out here in Las Vegas, there is no rust. There are plenty 25 year old OBD2 cars driving here. Still great transportation.
 
XR7-4.6 said:
Safety systems just encourage inattentive drivers. Back in the Day Volvo had a reputation for building the absolute safest cars on the market… they also had the casual reputation of having the worst drivers!
Click to expand...
This is so true! My grandfather used to say that if you wanted cars to be safer, you should mandate a razor sharp spike mounted to the steering wheel pointing directly at the driver’s throat, and you would suddenly find people driving a lot more carefully! I’ll never forget one time my aunt came over in her Lincoln Town Car. I happened to be doing something in the driveway when she showed up, and she started backing into a spot. She backed in and stopped, then backed a little further and stopped, and kept doing this while I was wondering what she was doing. Eventually she backed up all the way until her bumper hit the foundation of the house! When she got out I asked what the hell she was doing and her response was “the backup alarm never beeped!” Ok, so you obviously saw that you were close to the house cause you stopped like 5 times as you were getting closer, but you trusted the technology over your own eyes to the point where you literally crashed into a building!
 
KevinVarnes said:
Electric power steering assist is right up there with drive by wire as some of my most favorite technological automotive break throughs in the last 25 years. Why keep a simple mechanical system when you can replace it with an electrical system with 10X more potential failure modes?
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So first off let me say I agree with you completely I hate all the tech stuff. But drive by wire isn't really that new it's been in planes for a very long time now does it mean it belongs in car no and I don't think it should be, hell with the exception to certain vehicles I don't think they should have back up cameras either but in service trucks and cargo vans it's handy cause you can't see crap behind you in those... But all in all I agree just go back to simpler ways of doing things..
 
Backup cameras are typical all encompassing regulatory crap that is foisted on all because bureaucrats behind a desk don't have the mental capability to tell the difference between a box van where it would be useful and a sedan with decent sight lines where a turn of the neck(which by law you're supposed to do anyway) would be equally effective.

Same with stability control; Sedans aren't prone to rolling over, it's totally useless. However because inherently tippy SUVs are extremely popular for some reason every vehicle with every center of gravity produced has to have it. :facepalm:
 
My 2017 has the EPS with the lane assist, parking assist, etc. Features I have never used. Same thing with the traction control. 😛. These things are standard on newer vehicles, its just part of the package deal. As much fun as a stripped down 64 GTO sounds .. I couldn't imagine using it regularly or for long road trips.
 
I worked with a guy that worked at Tokada,the airbag guys. He casually mentioned they didn't have any problems, until they added Ammonium Nitrate. I know it's dangerously hygroscopic. Water in explosives turns to really hot steam, Which blows whatever casing you're using to hell. That's a problem in rocketry too.
Chernobyl was a steam explosion, before it was a fire. :)
I got written up for saying; "You improved safety long term by putting a claymore in the steering wheel. Whoever has an accident won't have Two..." Being truthful is not a defense for being insensitive. :) Apparently.
 
Grog6 said:
Water in explosives turns to really hot steam, Which blows whatever casing you're using to hell. That's a problem in rocketry too.
Chernobyl was a steam explosion, before it was a fire. :)
Click to expand...

That's the crazy thing about steam .. it only takes 1 BTU to raise the temperature of 1 pound of water by 1 degree .. but it takes an additional 970 BTU to convert 212 degree water to 212 degree steam .. that's almost 1000 times more heat energy at the same temperature - and then the water expands 1728 times it's size. ( also known as the latent heat of vaporization ) 😉
 
I've seen guys look for a pinhole leak in a steam line with a broomstick; When the end falls off, you just waved it across it. I've heard you don't use your hands more than twice lol.
 
Grog6 said:
I've seen guys look for a pinhole leak in a steam line with a broomstick; When the end falls off, you just waved it across it. I've heard you don't use your hands more than twice lol.
Click to expand...

Steam inside the pipe is invisible .. but it turns to a cloud of water vapor if there is a pin hole leak - it's easily visible. Im not buying the broom stick story.

A pinhole usually forms in a weld and can be easily fixed with a center punch, the threaded joints will rust themselves shut .. usually it's the condensate or return lines that corrode faster than the steam unless it's a really old one pipe style system.
 
1997ThunderbirdLXV6 said:
I'm really undecided on this subject...

One of my cars was a 2019 Jetta SEL, which had adaptive cruise and lane centering (the latter activated through OBDeleven). It was simply fantastic to drive on long road trips.

It also had rear automatic braking. One time, I was backing out of a parking spot in the supermarket lot. There was a lady walking behind my car. I had seen her; I knew where she was headed; and I knew that I could proceed backwards slowly without coming anywhere near her.
The Jetta felt otherwise. It stepped on the brakes, which seems harmless at such slow creep, but it's not. The system hits the brakes with full force, which produces an immediate stop accompanied by whatever mechanical noise those actuators make. It was scary.

Curiously, when a loved one is in the process of buying a new car, I tend to point them to a car  with such systems, because i do feel they're safer that way.
Click to expand...
I'm sure it is great when it is working...maybe. When it breaks it can be very difficult to troubleshoot and actually fix. Normally dealers are absolutely no help and just fire up the parts cannon at your cost. My sister has a late model CRV. One day all of the lights on the dash came on (lane keep assist, ABS, brake, traction control, etc. etc.) I came out and looked at it and couldn't find anything. The car ran and drove fine. I sent her on her way. Three days later they went off. I don't think any of that garbage helps me drive a car any safer than I do. There are so many potential failure modes that can affect multiple systems in a car all at the same time it is mind boggling. I know it is so gosh darn inefficient, but separate fuses, relays, and switches that you can test and replace individually are so much easier to work with, diagnose, troubleshoot, and fix. Now you have ten thousand modules for each system and they all have to communicate with each other properly. It adds a ton of cost and uncertainty when trying to fix that junk.
97teebs said:
So first off let me say I agree with you completely I hate all the tech stuff. But drive by wire isn't really that new it's been in planes for a very long time now does it mean it belongs in car no and I don't think it should be, hell with the exception to certain vehicles I don't think they should have back up cameras either but in service trucks and cargo vans it's handy cause you can't see crap behind you in those... But all in all I agree just go back to simpler ways of doing things..
Click to expand...
Yeah, I know airplanes have had drive by wire. That is fine. When I get a customer with no throttle and it is in limp mode is it the actuator on the throttle body, the throttle position sensor, the wiring to either of those, the gas pedal sensor, the wiring to that? It is amazing how elegant a simple push/pull cable is in relation to all of that garbage.

All of this is the main reason the newest car in our fleet (aside from my son's 2006 Durango which to my joy I discovered actually has a throttle cable!!) is a '98. I have enough headaches trying to troubleshoot that crap on other people's cars. I don't need it on ours.

I agree with XR7 above. Early OBD-II cars are great. They are smart enough to point you in a direction and dumb enough to get out of the way and let you actually fix it without having to reprogram a bunch of crap to get it to all work together.
 
XR7-4.6 said:
Safety systems just encourage inattentive drivers.
Click to expand...
I agree with everything you said except this. When trucking companies began introducing ADAS into their fleets, their at-fault collisions decreased overnight. I worked in compliance for a prominent LTL carrier during their ADAS rollout. From start to full implementation, the amount of preventable rear-end collisions decreased by 90%. Yes, 90%. Sideswipes and lane-change crashes also plummeted. Crash severity also decreased as these systems reacted before the driver could in split-second moments and lowered the impact speed before the crash. A trucking company that doesn't have an ADAS-equipped fleet in 2024 is one that doesn't care about safety, and the industry as a whole is in agreement.

Yes, these systems *can* enable the bad driver to get away with their nonsense for a bit longer, but a bad driver is going to be a bad driver with or without these systems. My Edge had Co-Pilot 360°, our Fusion does not. We drove both cars the same. It does help that the Ford system is essentially invisible until it kicks in to assist.

Bad driver or not, ADAS saves lives and the data proves it. At the end of the day, these systems do what they are supposed to do by preventing crashes (or reducing the severity of them). Changing behaviors of bad drivers takes years. Preventing crashes takes a camera and a radar sensor. I'd much rather have a crappy driver in a vehicle with ADAS than in one without it.

1997ThunderbirdLXV6 said:
The system hits the brakes with full force, which produces an immediate stop accompanied by whatever mechanical noise those actuators make. It was scary.
Click to expand...
It's designed to be scary. It's also designed to embarrass you. It's how these systems change behaviors. The more it beeps and actuates at a driver's bad decisions, the more it programs your brain to want to avoid repeating the same mistake twice. Ever had ADAS kick in while you're on a Bluetooth call and been embarrassed when you realized the people on the other end of the line knew what that noise was?

XR7-4.6 said:
Backup cameras are typical all encompassing regulatory crap that is foisted on all because bureaucrats behind a desk don't have the mental capability to tell the difference between a box van where it would be useful and a sedan with decent sight lines where a turn of the neck(which by law you're supposed to do anyway) would be equally effective.
Click to expand...
I've had my Fusion since 2013 and I would not have bought it after the test drive if didn't have a backup camera. You cannot see squat out the back window of it. The "regulatory crap" you mention was the government's response to children getting reversed over in their own driveways after new rear-end crash standards resulted in significant design changes to the rear ends of family cars. It's the same reason that pickup truck tailgates are a foot taller than they were 20 years ago.

I'll agree that not all of the FMVSS requirements are worth having, but most of them are.

[/ :soapbox: ]
 
Derphound01 said:
I agree with everything you said except this. When trucking companies began introducing ADAS into their fleets, their at-fault collisions decreased overnight. I worked in compliance for a prominent LTL carrier during their ADAS rollout. From start to full implementation, the amount of preventable rear-end collisions decreased by 90%. Yes, 90%. Sideswipes and lane-change crashes also plummeted. Crash severity also decreased as these systems reacted before the driver could in split-second moments and lowered the impact speed before the crash. A trucking company that doesn't have an ADAS-equipped fleet in 2024 is one that doesn't care about safety, and the industry as a whole is in agreement.

Yes, these systems *can* enable the bad driver to get away with their nonsense for a bit longer, but a bad driver is going to be a bad driver with or without these systems. My Edge had Co-Pilot 360°, our Fusion does not. We drove both cars the same. It does help that the Ford system is essentially invisible until it kicks in to assist.

Bad driver or not, ADAS saves lives and the data proves it. At the end of the day, these systems do what they are supposed to do by preventing crashes (or reducing the severity of them). Changing behaviors of bad drivers takes years. Preventing crashes takes a camera and a radar sensor. I'd much rather have a crappy driver in a vehicle with ADAS than in one without it.


It's designed to be scary. It's also designed to embarrass you. It's how these systems change behaviors. The more it beeps and actuates at a driver's bad decisions, the more it programs your brain to want to avoid repeating the same mistake twice. Ever had ADAS kick in while you're on a Bluetooth call and been embarrassed when you realized the people on the other end of the line knew what that noise was?


I've had my Fusion since 2013 and I would not have bought it after the test drive if didn't have a backup camera. You cannot see squat out the back window of it. The "regulatory crap" you mention was the government's response to children getting reversed over in their own driveways after new rear-end crash standards resulted in significant design changes to the rear ends of family cars. It's the same reason that pickup truck tailgates are a foot taller than they were 20 years ago.

I'll agree that not all of the FMVSS requirements are worth having, but most of them are.

[/ :soapbox: ]
Click to expand...

Part of this is two problems I believe; truckers in general due to to their tougher licensing requirements are already better trained than most drivers on the road. So where a trucker might be willing to heed a caution from such system due to their livelihoods at peril, I do not believe a typical crossover driver gives much of a crap. “Insurance will cover it, so who gives a damn”.

Two the back ends in modern sedans are ridiculously high. I’m not in disagreement with you that backup cameras save lives, but modern sedans with their tall asses are a far cry from sedans of old including MN12s which have a way shorter backside. That change too has been a modern car thing I don’t care for. It’s ridiculous to me how sedans despite all conforming to the modern standard of putting the gas tank in the wheelbase have to have such tall trunks. As far as the regs are concerned they’re targeting the wrong problems, such as that.
 
XR7-4.6 said:
Part of this is two problems I believe; truckers in general due to to their tougher licensing requirements are already better trained than most drivers on the road. So where a trucker might be willing to heed a caution from such system due to their livelihoods at peril, I do not believe a typical crossover driver gives much of a crap. “Insurance will cover it, so who gives a damn”.
Click to expand...
20 years ago this was correct. Then the boomers began retiring and the driver shortage began. You think millenials and zoomers are bad to work with? Imagine them driving a truck. And since there was a shortage, the industry as a whole began taking anyone with a pulse to drive their trucks AND letting them get away with all sorts of nonsense. In the last five years I've had drivers under the age of 40 in Alabama that can not read or write English.

FMCSA only standardized the new commercial driver requirements in 2022. For the ten years or so prior to that, it was a free-for-all. If you had a pulse and could pass a road test, you got a license and a job. CDL mills and companies like Swift were pumping out new drivers faster than puppy mills could breed golden doodles. Commercial insurance took notice during that time and raised rates to an all-time high. Now companies are going back and re-evaulating their hiring practices and training programs. They're also adapting ADAS en masse.

You also have the weed factor. As more states legalize it, the courts continue to maintain that CDL holders are still barred and will lose their license for failing a test. Even still, the random screenings rarely catch anyone. Most positive tests are caught in post-crash or pre-hire screenings.

Most boomer and GenX era drivers hate ADAS. Next time you're out on the highway, look at how many front radar sensors you see covered with a license plate or coke can on big trucks. These drivers are also notoroius for taping over the dashcams in their company trucks. Their behaviors are the hardest to change. Those generations have a sense of invincibility because "I've done this for 20+ years and I've never been in a big crash". In reality, they've almost always been in crashes but got lucky that it wasn't a "big" one by their standards.

For the average driver, they do know insurance covers it. They also know insurance rates rise and coverages get dropped. The number one argument I hear at crash scenes is car drivers arguing with the police about who is at fault because they don't want their insurance rates to go up.

TL,DR: Truck drivers of today are not the skilled professionals that they were when we were kids. In fact, they're some of the worst drivers on the road today.
 
Irv said:
He must not familiar with the Stevie Wonder Institute for Trucking.
Click to expand...
Sure Wish I Finished Training...

See What I F'up Today...

Sure We're Insured For That...

So What I Failed Twice...

Slow Women In Freightliner Trucks...
 
The worst driver in our friend group is now a otr truck driver, doing mostly hazmat that no-one else wants. I gave him a civil defence dosimiter, to use on his next rad shipment; he got one fuck of a dose, lol. Way more than I ever did.
 
Derphound01 said:
20 years ago this was correct. Then the boomers began retiring and the driver shortage began. You think millenials and zoomers are bad to work with? Imagine them driving a truck. And since there was a shortage, the industry as a whole began taking anyone with a pulse to drive their trucks AND letting them get away with all sorts of nonsense. In the last five years I've had drivers under the age of 40 in Alabama that can not read or write English.

FMCSA only standardized the new commercial driver requirements in 2022. For the ten years or so prior to that, it was a free-for-all. If you had a pulse and could pass a road test, you got a license and a job. CDL mills and companies like Swift were pumping out new drivers faster than puppy mills could breed golden doodles. Commercial insurance took notice during that time and raised rates to an all-time high. Now companies are going back and re-evaulating their hiring practices and training programs. They're also adapting ADAS en masse.

You also have the weed factor. As more states legalize it, the courts continue to maintain that CDL holders are still barred and will lose their license for failing a test. Even still, the random screenings rarely catch anyone. Most positive tests are caught in post-crash or pre-hire screenings.

Most boomer and GenX era drivers hate ADAS. Next time you're out on the highway, look at how many front radar sensors you see covered with a license plate or coke can on big trucks. These drivers are also notoroius for taping over the dashcams in their company trucks. Their behaviors are the hardest to change. Those generations have a sense of invincibility because "I've done this for 20+ years and I've never been in a big crash". In reality, they've almost always been in crashes but got lucky that it wasn't a "big" one by their standards.

For the average driver, they do know insurance covers it. They also know insurance rates rise and coverages get dropped. The number one argument I hear at crash scenes is car drivers arguing with the police about who is at fault because they don't want their insurance rates to go up.

TL,DR: Truck drivers of today are not the skilled professionals that they were when we were kids. In fact, they're some of the worst drivers on the road today.
Click to expand...

I can only say Touché :tongue:

Everybody sucks at driving now!
 
I learned to drive from cops, so I tend to drive like a cop, if I'm not thinking about it. You're safer only having to consider traffic coming one way. (Most cops die in traffic accidents.) I drive 10mph over the limit, and take care passing. Having driven since carter, I can say traffic behaves nicer overall during Dem regimes, and worse during repub administrations. People hate to be passed, for some reason. And won't fucking drive, either, lol. During Trump, everyone drove in the left lane; it was trippy, as I drove to work at 90, in the right lane. Weird. Then the pandemic hit, and apparently those people weren't "necessary employees" I repaired medical equipment, so I had a pass. It was awesome, until I had a stroke. That's pretty much how Lazarus died, lol. fwiw, the tbird was getting the same treatment. :)
 
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