T45 Reverse troubles

Ericv8thunderbird

Ericv8thunderbird

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1994 Thunderbird LX
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I figured I would just start a separate thread on this issue.

Most of you know I’ve been battling this reverse issue with my T45 swap for a while.

I spent some time playing with the slave cylinder adjustment. I feel like I’m getting somewhere, but I’ve noticed the clutch grabs when I lift my foot off the clutch pedal about less than an inch. Which doesn’t seem right to me, I don’t recall my turbo coupe being like that. ( I haven’t driven it since November so I really don’t remember)

However, it’s not getting stuck in reverse all the time now, it got stuck maybe 4/10 times I tired it.
I noticed when it does get suck, I do a very short quick pump of the clutch pedal and it will come out of reverse.

I attached a video, maybe you guys can see something wrong that I’m missing?

I really, really, really don’t want to pull the transmission again. 🥲

 
That looks right to me but it’s been a decade since I looked at mine in motion. My biggest concern from the video is I can see the bracket moving when you’re applying the clutch, do you have a support brace for it?


As to reverse I still think it’s the 5/R fork.
 
Yeah, there’s a brace behind it, bolted at one of the top holes of the transmission, I don’t have a picture of it.

I don’t think it’s the fork, I’m leaning towards the slave or master cylinder. Cause there was a few times I adjusted it and it got better, but occasionally it would get stuck, and the fact if I do a quick low double pump of the clutch pedal and it comes out of reverse kind of rules the fork out to me at least.
 
First thing that popped into my mind was the fork. They are known to bend, and they wear.
Hitting the clutch moves all the play around, so it goes in. Look at play in the bushings.
 
Ericv8thunderbird said:
Yeah, there’s a brace behind it, bolted at one of the top holes of the transmission, I don’t have a picture of it.

I don’t think it’s the fork, I’m leaning towards the slave or master cylinder. Cause there was a few times I adjusted it and it got better, but occasionally it would get stuck, and the fact if I do a quick low double pump of the clutch pedal and it comes out of reverse kind of rules the fork out to me at least.
Click to expand...

I think you’re ruling out the fork based on how typically bent forks behave, and for the symptoms you explain, I’d be inclined to agree with you. However the 5/R reverse fork is a fairly unique design with a unique set of symptoms that match what you’re experiencing, and it’s a common issue:

[0004]The 5 speed manual automotive transmission model T45 was originally designed and produced by Borg-Warner Automotive, sold to Ford Motor Company, and installed in Ford Mustang 4.6 L V-8 engine applications for the vehicle model years 1996 thru 2001. The T45 transmission suffered from an inherit design issue that resulted in a problem condition of: 1) being stuck in reverse gear; 2) being difficult to shift into reverse gear; or 3) jumping out of reverse gear. This problem issue is documented in Ford Technical Service Bulletin #TSB #01235, (NHTSA ID#630341 dated Nov. 26, 2001).

[0005]The basic problem to be fixed involves overcoming the inability of the original double disconnect design shift system components to maintain a synchronized movement of the reverse shifting sleeves (2) located on both the output and counter shafts. To complete a properly synchronized reverse shift sequence, the tooth points of the reverse shifting sleeve must engage the clutching teeth of the reverse driven gear located on the output shaft simultaneously with the tooth points of the 5/Rev shifting sleeve tooth points engaging the clutching teeth of the reverse drive gear located on the counter shaft.

[0006]Due to tolerance stackup of multiple components, excessive wear of components, or deflection of shifting fork, the simultaneous engagement of tooth points with clutching teeth on both shafts is not able to be completed on every shift event. Without the required simultaneous travel engagement, the relative rotational speed of sleeve tooth points to gear clutch teeth will create unsynchronized engagement at the tooth point surfaces resulting in excessive wear and cumulative damage to the tooth contact surfaces. Once the damage exceeds acceptable operational limits, the reverse shift system is subject to exhibiting the problems described above.

Read more: https://www.patentsencyclopedia.com/app/20080302195

IMG_8400.pngIMG_8399.pngIMG_8398.png
 
XR7-4.6 said:
1) being stuck in reverse gear; 2) being difficult to shift into reverse gear; or 3) jumping out of reverse gear.
Click to expand...

I’m not totally ruling out the 5/R fork, but the only symptom I have is being stuck in reverse gear.

I’m just dreading pulling the transmission again and trying everything else first, but I’d also like to maybe enjoy the car this summer, I guess I might have to add “pull transmission” again to my whiteboard. 😭
 
Ericv8thunderbird said:
I’m not totally ruling out the 5/R fork, but the only symptom I have is being stuck in reverse gear.

I’m just dreading pulling the transmission again and trying everything else first, but I’d also like to maybe enjoy the car this summer, I guess I might have to add “pull transmission” again to my whiteboard. 😭
Click to expand...

Technically you could change the fork with the trans in car, removing the driveshaft and tail shaft housing(and shifter and everything)…

otoh if it were me I’d do exactly what’s done in the patent which effectively makes the T45 reverse work like any other manual transmission reverse, which does require some minor machining. I was going to do it to my old T45 before I scored the TR3650
 
XR7-4.6 said:
Technically you could change the fork with the trans in car, removing the driveshaft and tail shaft housing(and shifter and everything)…
Click to expand...
I might as well take the whole transmission out at that point. 😅

I’m going to remove the resivor, master & slave cylinder and try bench bleeding it one more time before I pull the trigger and start disassembling the whole thing again, I have a feeling there’s still air in the system.
 
I pulled the whole hydraulic system, the master cylinder rod was hard as a rock, I couldn’t push it in by hand at all, I’ve been working on bleeding the system, I can hear the fluid squirting into the master cylinder and I can push the rod in one time by hand, it goes in maybe an inch? That’s too much isn’t it? But then it’s hard as a rock again. The rod also has a bunch of back and forth play, is that normal? I’m thinking this is the culprit. IMG_4911.jpeg
 
Last edited:
Ericv8thunderbird said:
I figured I would just start a separate thread on this issue.

Most of you know I’ve been battling this reverse issue with my T45 swap for a while.

I spent some time playing with the slave cylinder adjustment. I feel like I’m getting somewhere, but I’ve noticed the clutch grabs when I lift my foot off the clutch pedal about less than an inch. Which doesn’t seem right to me, I don’t recall my turbo coupe being like that. ( I haven’t driven it since November so I really don’t remember)

However, it’s not getting stuck in reverse all the time now, it got stuck maybe 4/10 times I tired it.
I noticed when it does get suck, I do a very short quick pump of the clutch pedal and it will come out of reverse.

I attached a video, maybe you guys can see something wrong that I’m missing?

I really, really, really don’t want to pull the transmission again. 🥲

Click to expand...

Sorry you are having issues, that really sucks.

I have messed with my setup a lot in the past, and done the same thing recording a video. It looks like the same movement and engagement in mine. I have no issues with reverse, but sometimes need to grab another gear beforehand to get it into reverse smoothly. I have heard that's common for these transmissions though, and my other stickshift car is the same.

These swaps are never perfect, it's a never ending project trying to do so. However you will eventully get it to a point that you are happy with!

Mine has always had a bit of clutch chatter that annoys me, but I attribute that to the aluminum flywheel and Mpact "Hi-Torque Steelback Disc" clutch I used. I just deal with it, I'm not about to drop the transmission and throw parts at it to try and smooth it out.
 
Kenz said:
Sorry you are having issues, that really sucks.

I have messed with my setup a lot in the past, and done the same thing recording a video. It looks like the same movement and engagement in mine. I have no issues with reverse, but sometimes need to grab another gear beforehand to get it into reverse smoothly. I have heard that's common for these transmissions though, and my other stickshift car is the same.

These swaps are never perfect, it's a never ending project trying to do so. However you will eventully get it to a point that you are happy with!

Mine has always had a bit of clutch chatter that annoys me, but I attribute that to the aluminum flywheel and Mpact "Hi-Torque Steelback Disc" clutch I used. I just deal with it, I'm not about to drop the transmission and throw parts at it to try and smooth it out.
Click to expand...
Thanks!

I’m hoping to have this sorted out by the time nice weather arrives, I only took it out maybe twice last summer.
I didn’t really put it on my priority list cause I was enjoying the Turbo Coupe too much, but now I want to be able to actually experience the supercharger and stick swap.

I have a few projects for the TC that I haven’t gotten to yet.
I just want to make sure pulling the trans for the 2nd time is the absolute last resort before ruling everything else out, it’s not fun doing it on the ground.
 
FWIW I’m pretty sure mine’s aftermarket (given I bought it new on Rockauto), no issues.
 
Ericv8thunderbird said:
I just can’t win with this swap.

I bench bled everything again, put in the new master cylinder and everything else back together in the car, and now the new slave cylinder is leaking from the piston. 😡
Click to expand...

Is that the weird cast iron slave I was suspicious of a bit ago?

Full disclosure I bought my SC master new from Rockauto (which I presume is aftermarket as such) but the slave I used and am still using 11 years later is a genuine GM junkyard one I pulled directly from a S10 I intended to use for mockup only… but… used forever.
 
Yeah, it’s the cast iron slave from Rockauto. The brand is Perfection Clutch.
I’d say it’s far from perfection though.

I filed a warranty claim yesterday, so hopefully I’ll have the new one soon.
I’m assuming GM discontinued that slave cylinder?
 
Not sure but you can get the stock style one new still, Dorman, LUK, etc all match the original. The cast iron one from Perfection Clutch looks to be the same as the economy SKP

1992 CHEVROLET S10 PICKUP 2.5L L4 Clutch Slave Cylinder | Shop Now at RockAuto

Transmission-Manual Parts and More for Your 1992 CHEVROLET S10 PICKUP at Reliably Low Prices. Fast Online Catalog. DIY-Easy. Your Choice of Quality. Full Manufacturer Warranty.
www.rockauto.com
 
XR7-4.6 said:
Not sure but you can get the stock style one new still, Dorman, LUK, etc all match the original. The cast iron one from Perfection Clutch looks to be the same as the economy SKP

1992 CHEVROLET S10 PICKUP 2.5L L4 Clutch Slave Cylinder | Shop Now at RockAuto

Transmission-Manual Parts and More for Your 1992 CHEVROLET S10 PICKUP at Reliably Low Prices. Fast Online Catalog. DIY-Easy. Your Choice of Quality. Full Manufacturer Warranty.
www.rockauto.com
Click to expand...
Rockauto shipped a replacement for no charge, but I figured I’d try a different brand, so I went with the FTE (Made by Valeo) The casing is plastic.

At least I’ll have a back up on hand.
 
Valeo could have been the supplier for GM back then, I looked at it on RA and mine has the exact same markings as the sample pic. Valeo was the OEM clutch supplier for SN95/New Edge era(and maybe S197) Mustangs too

YMMV but one of the things I really appreciated about the plastic bodied S10 slave is I could reclock it 90° from the steel bracket mount it comes with, which made the line routing a little bit cleaner.
 
This has to be a F***ing joke.

I’ve never had such a hard time doing anything mechanical in my life. I barely bumped it with my wrench and it broke clean off.

Side note, does anyone know why the fluid coming out of it is red? The brake fluid I used was definitely not red. IMG_5060.jpeg
 
That is frustrating. Red could just be the color of the test fluid they use. Maybe makes it easier for them to see? Does it feel brake fluid-ish?
 
KevinVarnes said:
That is frustrating. Red could just be the color of the test fluid they use. Maybe makes it easier for them to see? Does it feel brake fluid-ish?
Click to expand...
This manual swap is the worst mechanical thing I’ve ever experienced, and I’m not a novice.

It does feel like brake fluid, I’m getting over a cold and still can’t smell, so I can’t report on that lol.

I filed a warranty claim on RA, so I guess I’ll try again next weekend as long as I get the new slave by then.
 
I can't believe they're using glass-filled plastic for pressure.
 
Grog6 said:
I can't believe they're using glass-filled plastic for pressure.
Click to expand...
The last 2 were steel and those failed, XR7 had told me the factory slaves on the S-10 are plastic, so I thought I’d try that.
This whole project has just been a mess.
 
Glass- filled plastic is the powdered metal of the car part world; looks the same broken, which seems to be the default state. (I broke the nose off a 4r70w hitting a bump getting on the interstate, lol.)
They fill the plastic with powdered glass, not fibers. Fibers might actually do something, but they want rigid, so powder.
 
Well, got the new slave cylinder and new master cylinder installed. The clutch pedal definitely feels way better, but out of the dozen times I shifted in and out of reverse it got stuck a couple times.
So I’ve come to the conclusion that the 5/R fork is bent.
Looks like I’ll be pulling the transmission again at some point. 😡

Gonna focus on the Turbo Coupe for now so I have something to take to cars and coffee. 🤷🏻‍♂️
 
I figured as much but sorry for the continued frustration nonetheless. I strongly suggest following the procedure in the patent link instead of simply replacing the fork, that alteration should solve the issue forever and it’s fairly minimal machining, which is basically just cutting the fork and adding a groove to the splines for a snap ring


If it makes you feel any better my 5-speed swap required me pulling the transmission later because the 1-2 fork turned out to be bent. It would constantly pop out out of second when I first put it in which was doubly frustrating as I was literally learning how to drive stick with it
 
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