Thunderbird to Mustang Hub and Brake Swap
- Thread starter Stanley
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Stanley
2nd Gear Poster
This seems to contradict a lot of what I wrote in the first post and which people told me was accurate. Are you describing a different style of front hub swap, using different terms for the same thing, or am I missing something?
I thought you needed 94-04 generic Mustang hubs, not 2004 GT hubs specifically. And that the fronts use 13" rotors for 94-04 Cobras, not 14" GT ones.
Looking at this, the PBR upgrade seems to be completely different than what I want to do:
Dual-piston PBR Brake Caliper Upgrade
PBR Dual Piston Caliper Install (using '99-'04 Mustang hardware) This page outlines the installation of the factory aluminum dual piston PBR calipers found on '99-'04 Mustangs onto an MN12 Thunderbird/Cougar with '93-'97 spindles. The MN12 brakes were derived from the Sable/Taurus platform...
forum.birdcats.com
Sorry, but your post just confused me more.
If someone wouldn't mind taking a quick look at my first post, could they tell me if I have the right parts listed? I'm about to take my car out of town to a friends to try and add on everything listed, and I don't want to find out I have a bunch of stuff that doesn't work after I take everything apart.
KevinVarnes
3rd Gear Poster
Stock T-Bird fronts are 10.87" and 11.57" for the Sport/Mark VIII.
KevinVarnes
3rd Gear Poster
The 99-04 GT/V6 caliper "upgrade" just gives you more pad swept area. I'm not a real big fan of the 99-04 GT/V6 calipers in general. Just because they say PBR on them and they have two pistons doesn't make them awesome. I think either 38mm or 40mm dual piston Cobra caliper is an excellent upgrade.
What you have documented in your first post under the front hub swap section is correct.This seems to contradict a lot of what I wrote in the first post and which people told me was accurate. Are you describing a different style of front hub swap, using different terms for the same thing, or am I missing something?
I thought you needed 94-04 generic Mustang hubs, not 2004 GT hubs specifically. And that the fronts use 13" rotors for 94-04 Cobras, not 14" GT ones.
Looking at this, the PBR upgrade seems to be completely different than what I want to do:
Dual-piston PBR Brake Caliper Upgrade
PBR Dual Piston Caliper Install (using '99-'04 Mustang hardware) This page outlines the installation of the factory aluminum dual piston PBR calipers found on '99-'04 Mustangs onto an MN12 Thunderbird/Cougar with '93-'97 spindles. The MN12 brakes were derived from the Sable/Taurus platform...
Sorry, but your post just confused me more.
If someone wouldn't mind taking a quick look at my first post, could they tell me if I have the right parts listed? I'm about to take my car out of town to a friends to try and add on everything listed, and I don't want to find out I have a bunch of stuff that doesn't work after I take everything apart.
PBR manufactured the front calipers for both the Cobra and the New Edge Mustang. A PBR caliper swap refers to the latter though. The other is known as the Cobra caliper swap.
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@Grog6 gets hung up on 2004s because that year (and 03) calipers shares coarse banjo bolts with our cars but he doesn’t seem to take into account you can just buy new fine thread banjo bolts if they don’t match.
As far as Cobra fronts are concerned everything 94-04 is compatible with our cars. Only exception is 94-98 calipers use 38mm pistons, 99-04s use 40mm pistons, same pads though.
GT/V6 twin piston PBRs were 99-04 only, 94-98 GTs and V6s use the same calipers 93-97 MN12s use
As far as Cobra fronts are concerned everything 94-04 is compatible with our cars. Only exception is 94-98 calipers use 38mm pistons, 99-04s use 40mm pistons, same pads though.
GT/V6 twin piston PBRs were 99-04 only, 94-98 GTs and V6s use the same calipers 93-97 MN12s use
Grog6
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I always mention it because I had to order a set from RA or tasca, and wait almost two weeks for them. the ones I ordered did not match, or come with them. 
Is there any reason I can't treat these new calipers like a rifle covered with cosmoline, to clean all the oil off so I can paint them properly? That's pretty much, crawling into a hot shower with a bottle of dawn. And the items to clean. I can block the fitting holes.
Is there any reason I can't treat these new calipers like a rifle covered with cosmoline, to clean all the oil off so I can paint them properly? That's pretty much, crawling into a hot shower with a bottle of dawn. And the items to clean. I can block the fitting holes.
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gunn
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With the OK from my admin, I've stuck consmoline soaked AK stocks in the dishwasher before (at my old office) to get rid of decades of cosmoline before... maybe don't do that.I always mention it because I had to order a set from RA or tasca, and wait almost two weeks for them. the ones I ordered did not match, or come with them.
Is there any reason I can't treat these new calipers like a rifle covered with cosmoline, to clean all the oil off so I can paint them properly? That's pretty much, crawling into a hot shower with a bottle of dawn. And the items to clean. I can block the fitting holes.
I doubt splashing water (vs soaking) would get water past the phenolic pistons, but part of me woudl think that maybe using some duct tape to insure that face of the calipers isn't exposed to water.
I think the "proper" way would be full disassembly including piston removal -- that's what you'd do to prep for powdercoating.
looking for a DIY for GT caliper disassembly
I'm thinking to send my caliper to a powdercoat paintshop. I do not know if the are able or not to disassemble the calipers for the poweder job. Can it be done by me? I'm not a mecanical guy but I can do many mecamical jobs. BTW I never tried to disassemble a break kit. I can change pads and...
www.mustang6g.com
Some people just spray paint everything while still on the car: calipers, rotors, tires, whatever.
I think the "best solution" lies somewhere between these two extremes.
Q: If not powdercoating, what are you planning to painnt your calipers with? Spray paint? POR15 makes a high temp epoxy paint product you brush on targeted to calipers. While I don't have street miles on the paint yet, I used POR15 to coat parts of my project frame that I cannot easily remove AND have been pretty impressed with its durability.
If you prep right spray paint can be pretty damn durable, for a component as small as a caliper in particular. Don’t bother with “caliper paint” engine enamels work just as well
Stanley
2nd Gear Poster
Just got back from putting on some parts and the mechanic said "oh, by the way, one of the axle nuts had trouble coming off, so we had to replace it". And he seem surprised when I told him "Dorman, right?".
He said the new one went on fine, but I'm worried some damage has been done and I have to get back in there in a couple of weeks to do my hub swap. So, knowing that one of the garbage design Dorman nuts is now on there, what does that mean for future work?
He said the new one went on fine, but I'm worried some damage has been done and I have to get back in there in a couple of weeks to do my hub swap. So, knowing that one of the garbage design Dorman nuts is now on there, what does that mean for future work?
Grog6
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Don't take it off unless you have to; it does all the wear during removal. The rear is three pieces in a cage, so I bend the cage off, and remove the 3 nuts individually. That way there is no wear to the spindle or axle. I don't want to have to search for a spindle if I change the bearings three times.
Grog6
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She's gonna want equal spending.
How much were the lines from classic tube? I bought mine thru ian.
How much were the lines from classic tube? I bought mine thru ian.
Grog6
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Not bad. I can imagine how expensive it must be to get heavy parts.
Stanley
2nd Gear Poster
So, last week I went up to visit a friend and finally did the work. My buddy was a GM guy, so there were a bunch of little things that surprised him along the way and caused the project to drag out over multiple days, but overall it went off with only minor hitches.
Just before we got down to it. We started at the front, knowing it was supposed to be the simpler swap.
The absolute obnoxious spacer on the wheels originally, to allow the car's 19" Mustang GT wheels to mount properly. These things ate wheel bearings for breakfast. The silver bit at the top is the 1/8" spacer I'm replacing the originals with, for scale.
New rotors vs. old: the front.
New rotors vs. old: the front.
And the rears.
Came together nicely. The Doctor Diff front kit was very nice to work with: everything you needed in one go. Amusingly, the most difficult part was that it came with a pin but none of its parts had a hole that could fit it. We spent over half an hour trying to figure out where to cram this thing--it showed on the website photos too, so we knew it wasn't an accidental inclusion--before I figured out that the hole is created when you push the bracket and calipers together: each has a half-channel, that combined makes the pin hole.
The only real annoying part were the stainless steel brake lines. The clip on one shattered as soon as I took it out of the package. They are also doing a bit of rubbing that I don't know how to deal with (more on that below). Hopefully they can point me to a replacement, or send me one. In the short term we just eased the bracket in there without all its clip.
I'd had to get smaller tires because the 19" wheels plus the tires were creating rubbing issues. I've since rebuilt the front suspension, done some work on the rear (including the Cobra spring isolators), and now finished this hub swap, so I'm kind of curious if the original tires would work now (they were 245/45/19s). But from what I gathered asking in other threads they would have always been an issue and were pretty worn besides and so I turfed them. In any case, I miss the fuller look they gave. I think in the future I'll drop the wheels to 18s and use the space gained to add new tires with more sidewall so that there's a better sense of balance visually. Still, I'd mostly rather work on mechanics than cosmetics, so new wheels and tires will have to wait until I run these new Quiettrack tires down.
Overall impressions? Handling is a lot better with those bloody spacers gone: I use to have a low-speed wheel shimmy as if my alignment was bad, and the first thing I noticed when I got behind the wheel was not the better brakes but that the shimmy had gone. Also, there's a definite gain from just knowing that I can make more aggressive cornering again (well, at least as aggressive as the current suspension allows): previously I'd been absolutely babying it because the last shop I was at warned me that, with the old giant spacers, I wanted to avoid any undue stresses or even the brand-new bearings they had just put in would be gone again in no time.
Despite the bigger numbers with all the Cobra brake components, I honestly can't say I'm noticing any real difference in braking. I haven't really stomped on it yet, but for average everyday driving all I'm really seeing is more pedal travel required to get the same result (a result of the larger pistons, I assume). No issues, but not the transformation I was expecting.
I also have some grinding noise coming from the front now when I put her full over to the right while reversing. I'm pretty sure it's one of the steel brake lines rubbing, but securing them is not as easy as it might sound, since there's only so much line and all sorts of moving parts in there. I'll need to figure something out, but for the vast bulk of driving I haven't had an issue.
I'd say the only trouble spot in the whole process came from when my friend accidentally ground too much off one of the rear caliper brackets to make room for the Cobra rotor, exposing the channel at one end beneath the metal that a pin travels back and forth in (fortunately it's a cheap part). Otherwise it was just a slow but steady process of measuring, constant spraying with Brake Clean, and wrenching away.
Just wanted to extend a warm thanks to all that offered information and advice as I kept pleading for help. I'm delighted to have it all done, and made some last updates to my opening post to take into account what I learned. As a bonus, I think it's the now the most thorough one-stop hub swap guide on the net.
Next stage: the rear suspension. Oh man this is going to be a big one....
Just before we got down to it. We started at the front, knowing it was supposed to be the simpler swap.
The absolute obnoxious spacer on the wheels originally, to allow the car's 19" Mustang GT wheels to mount properly. These things ate wheel bearings for breakfast. The silver bit at the top is the 1/8" spacer I'm replacing the originals with, for scale.
New rotors vs. old: the front.
New rotors vs. old: the front.
And the rears.
Came together nicely. The Doctor Diff front kit was very nice to work with: everything you needed in one go. Amusingly, the most difficult part was that it came with a pin but none of its parts had a hole that could fit it. We spent over half an hour trying to figure out where to cram this thing--it showed on the website photos too, so we knew it wasn't an accidental inclusion--before I figured out that the hole is created when you push the bracket and calipers together: each has a half-channel, that combined makes the pin hole.
The only real annoying part were the stainless steel brake lines. The clip on one shattered as soon as I took it out of the package. They are also doing a bit of rubbing that I don't know how to deal with (more on that below). Hopefully they can point me to a replacement, or send me one. In the short term we just eased the bracket in there without all its clip.
I'd had to get smaller tires because the 19" wheels plus the tires were creating rubbing issues. I've since rebuilt the front suspension, done some work on the rear (including the Cobra spring isolators), and now finished this hub swap, so I'm kind of curious if the original tires would work now (they were 245/45/19s). But from what I gathered asking in other threads they would have always been an issue and were pretty worn besides and so I turfed them. In any case, I miss the fuller look they gave. I think in the future I'll drop the wheels to 18s and use the space gained to add new tires with more sidewall so that there's a better sense of balance visually. Still, I'd mostly rather work on mechanics than cosmetics, so new wheels and tires will have to wait until I run these new Quiettrack tires down.
Overall impressions? Handling is a lot better with those bloody spacers gone: I use to have a low-speed wheel shimmy as if my alignment was bad, and the first thing I noticed when I got behind the wheel was not the better brakes but that the shimmy had gone. Also, there's a definite gain from just knowing that I can make more aggressive cornering again (well, at least as aggressive as the current suspension allows): previously I'd been absolutely babying it because the last shop I was at warned me that, with the old giant spacers, I wanted to avoid any undue stresses or even the brand-new bearings they had just put in would be gone again in no time.
Despite the bigger numbers with all the Cobra brake components, I honestly can't say I'm noticing any real difference in braking. I haven't really stomped on it yet, but for average everyday driving all I'm really seeing is more pedal travel required to get the same result (a result of the larger pistons, I assume). No issues, but not the transformation I was expecting.
I also have some grinding noise coming from the front now when I put her full over to the right while reversing. I'm pretty sure it's one of the steel brake lines rubbing, but securing them is not as easy as it might sound, since there's only so much line and all sorts of moving parts in there. I'll need to figure something out, but for the vast bulk of driving I haven't had an issue.
I'd say the only trouble spot in the whole process came from when my friend accidentally ground too much off one of the rear caliper brackets to make room for the Cobra rotor, exposing the channel at one end beneath the metal that a pin travels back and forth in (fortunately it's a cheap part). Otherwise it was just a slow but steady process of measuring, constant spraying with Brake Clean, and wrenching away.
Just wanted to extend a warm thanks to all that offered information and advice as I kept pleading for help. I'm delighted to have it all done, and made some last updates to my opening post to take into account what I learned. As a bonus, I think it's the now the most thorough one-stop hub swap guide on the net.
Next stage: the rear suspension. Oh man this is going to be a big one....
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I think people tend to get hung up on rotor diameter, piston count and, pad size when it comes to braking performance. It’s not just area and leverage, it’s not hard to lock the stock 10.5” single pistons with enough muscle afterall, so they’re plenty powerful. Where you see the difference between 13” cobras, 14” brembos etc is FADE resistance.
On paper the regular 99-04 PBRs on stock non-sport rotors are the superior caliper, with bigger pistons and larger pad surface, but if you were to put two identical cars on a road course, one with the Cobras one with regular PBRs, the Cobra one will have consistent braking performance slowing down going into the curves, where the car with the standard PBRs will have lost its pedal fairly quickly
On paper the regular 99-04 PBRs on stock non-sport rotors are the superior caliper, with bigger pistons and larger pad surface, but if you were to put two identical cars on a road course, one with the Cobras one with regular PBRs, the Cobra one will have consistent braking performance slowing down going into the curves, where the car with the standard PBRs will have lost its pedal fairly quickly
Hey btw what center caps are you using? Pure curiosity for me since I no longer own those wheels but I was always looking for alternatives to the stock “pony” caps they came with for obvious reasons.
Stanley
2nd Gear Poster
Yeah, I had the exact same reaction: didn't want to roll with the ponies. I eventually found these simple ones on Amazon:
I'm going to eventually get a set of birds etched on them since there's a fair number of custom cap stores, though I'm actually thinking about the more Art Deco-style 83-84 Birds. It's a very clean, graceful style, I think.
I'm going to eventually get a set of birds etched on them since there's a fair number of custom cap stores, though I'm actually thinking about the more Art Deco-style 83-84 Birds. It's a very clean, graceful style, I think.
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Might be the same one. I know he and @MadMikeyL stay connected, if Clint doesn't respond right away you could check in with Mike to see if he can help get you in touch.
MadMikeyL
Administrator
Sorry, I’m usually pretty good at responding to people, not sure how it fell through the cracks. I’ll reach out to Clint tomorrow and tell him to check in here.
Stanley
2nd Gear Poster
No worries, it happens. Thanks for taking the time.
KevinVarnes
3rd Gear Poster
I agree with XR-7. I love the Cobra brakes on my LTD wagon. I guess it is more of the confidence you have when driving with them. In the town I am live near it is 55mph with a lot of Michigan left turns with not very long turn lanes which means if you don't want to slow everyone in the fast lane down you go into the turn lane at near full speed and then brake hard to slow down in time. I'm sure the old 10"single piston brakes could have done it okay a couple of times, but with the Cobras I just press on the brake pedal and they haul it right down and it will do it all day long.
I know there are other higher performance brake set ups out there, and the Cobras would probably get outclassed on a race track by some 18 piston 40" diameter rotor brakes pretty quickly, but for the money/fit/function on the street, they are pretty good. The only thing holding me back from upgrading the '97 from the sport brakes to Cobras is finding wheels to fit around them that fit the car correctly that I like.
Grog6
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ClintD has built some awesome cars!
