6R80 in Place of 4R70W

@MadMikeyL interesting, I’ve driven 2 10R cars (mustang/f150) and they were both a pleasure to drive. I know they updated the trans tune in around 2022 or something. They were always in the right gear, didn’t hesitate and downshifted immediately. Plus how much torque is the 2v putting down low under 2000rpm?

@XR7-4.6 what trans did you go with? The only reason i wanna stick with the auto is because the bird is such a cruiser and while I do love a clutch it’ll take away from my goals.

@Zep5.0 there’s plenty of guys running 11/10’s with more than 3 gears, just gotta look for them. S550 mustang guys are running crazy numbers all day all motor, obviously the coyote is a beast but the 10r helps keep it in the band. 4.10’s with a 4R is running 24-2500rpm at 65mph which kinda sucks. I’m currently debating this tho, jumping on the 4.10 bandwagon but with the vortech that 1st would run out quick AF haha.

Also for $1450 in engine mods how much power would you be gaining?? Cams don’t really pick up anything, 30-40 HP?? Shiiiieeett SCP headers alone cost $1000 and you ain’t gaining Chet with that on the weak NPI heads.

Just picking y’all’s heads, I like hearing all opinions.
 
Chingon1 said:
@MadMikeyL interesting, I’ve driven 2 10R cars (mustang/f150) and they were both a pleasure to drive. I know they updated the trans tune in around 2022 or something. They were always in the right gear, didn’t hesitate and downshifted immediately. Plus how much torque is the 2v putting down low under 2000rpm?

@XR7-4.6 what trans did you go with? The only reason i wanna stick with the auto is because the bird is such a cruiser and while I do love a clutch it’ll take away from my goals.

@Zep5.0 there’s plenty of guys running 11/10’s with more than 3 gears, just gotta look for them. S550 mustang guys are running crazy numbers all day all motor, obviously the coyote is a beast but the 10r helps keep it in the band. 4.10’s with a 4R is running 24-2500rpm at 65mph which kinda sucks. I’m currently debating this tho, jumping on the 4.10 bandwagon but with the vortech that 1st would run out quick AF haha.

Also for $1450 in engine mods how much power would you be gaining?? Cams don’t really pick up anything, 30-40 HP?? Shiiiieeett SCP headers alone cost $1000 and you ain’t gaining Chet with that on the weak NPI heads.

Just picking y’all’s heads, I like hearing all opinions.
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There are some, but my point is most any faster than that are running 2 and 3 speeds. I have a 10spd in my truck, so I'm not against them, I just don't see any need for more than 6 unless you're running a 14 liter diesel that red-lines at 2300 RPM.

And spending $1450 on engine mods is really just one more thing. For instance on my build, that's moving up to the Intake I'm running, which is 50hp. But that's not on a stock or nearly stock motor. I'm assuming anything being trans swapped would have a lot of mods already done. Because a 200 HP engine turning a 10r is insane. Those 3 tenths in the quarter really worth that much work? Admittedly I haven't looked to see what a good used one goes for, but I'm thinking a few grand PLUS the controller. Now we're talking enough money to do a nice build on the engine that will actually improve performance.

All this to say, 10r behind a coyote as a swap would be cool. Print it behind a fairly stock 4.6, is no bueno
 
Chingon1 said:
@XR7-4.6 what trans did you go with? The only reason i wanna stick with the auto is because the bird is such a cruiser and while I do love a clutch it’ll take away from my goals.
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TR3650 (with the 03-04 only .62 5th).

For me I don’t really know what being a good cruiser is, beyond like a 60s Cadillac convertible or something. MN12s aren’t plush enough for the automatic to be a must with them and for me the manual brings out the inherent dynamic qualities of the chassis in ways I never knew until actually having one. It still “cruises” so… 😆


Everything works together, throwing cams and headers into a car with a stock 4R70w and 3.08s will be disappointing and likewise throwing a 10R into a powertrain it’s not matched for. V8s just have too broad of a curve to necessitate all these gears for maximum performance, it’s different with a 3cyl turbo etc but with a V8? Eh… the 4.6 may not have big block grunt below 2000rpm but that’s what stall converters and steeper rear gears are made for.
 
The 10 gear transmissions are in the same league as 0w-8 engine oil, just CAFE standard work arounds. It may help for daily driving and squeezing a few more fractions of average MPG. But having 4 more gears isn't going to do anything for performance.

Next stop after the 10 speed is a CVT.... Then the car can sound like a boat accelerating up a few knots :LOL:
 
Chingon1 said:
@MadMikeyL interesting, I’ve driven 2 10R cars (mustang/f150) and they were both a pleasure to drive. I know they updated the trans tune in around 2022 or something. They were always in the right gear, didn’t hesitate and downshifted immediately. Plus how much torque is the 2v putting down low under 2000rpm?

@XR7-4.6 what trans did you go with? The only reason i wanna stick with the auto is because the bird is such a cruiser and while I do love a clutch it’ll take away from my goals.

@Zep5.0 there’s plenty of guys running 11/10’s with more than 3 gears, just gotta look for them. S550 mustang guys are running crazy numbers all day all motor, obviously the coyote is a beast but the 10r helps keep it in the band. 4.10’s with a 4R is running 24-2500rpm at 65mph which kinda sucks. I’m currently debating this tho, jumping on the 4.10 bandwagon but with the vortech that 1st would run out quick AF haha.

Also for $1450 in engine mods how much power would you be gaining?? Cams don’t really pick up anything, 30-40 HP?? Shiiiieeett SCP headers alone cost $1000 and you ain’t gaining Chet with that on the weak NPI heads.

Just picking y’all’s heads, I like hearing all opinions.
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In all fairness, I should say that I have never been happy with any automatic transmission in any vehicle I have ever driven, but these modern 8 and 10 speed transmissions just annoy the fuck out of me on a whole other level. The point of an automatic is to not be thinking about it. When it has 10 gears to choose from, it will always be shifting, and that is the exact opposite of what you want from a “cruiser”. Going from a 4-speed to a 6-speed will definitely be an upgrade due to the significantly improved gear ratio spread, which will help acceleration while also keeping highway rpms down, while still keeping the feeling of a stock car, so I totally get the point of that swap. But if you look at the spread of the 10-speed compared to the 6-speed, you aren’t gaining much on either end, most of the added gear ratios are in between gears, which as was stated, is great for epa fuel economy ratings, but will have little to no real world improvement compared to the simpler 6-speed.
 
So, what year vehicles have the manual that fits, as you and matt used, and which mustang was it that had the hydro pedal that someone used?
 
MadMikeyL said:
I have driven both F150s and the Camaro with the 10-speed, and I cannot stand it. It shifts way too much, skips gears, then decides that was a bad idea and shifts back to the gear in between. I could see it being useful if you had some highly tuned engine with radical cams that only made power in a very narrow powerband, but for a V8 with a broad torque curve, the 10-speed is totally ill-suited. Maybe you could customize the tune to effectively lock out certain gears, and effectively make a 6 or 7 speed out of it, but the 6r80 swap would give plenty of performance advantage while still behaving like a normal transmission, so I really don’t see the point of even entertaining the 10-speed.
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Looking at the gear spreads, it's almost like they had so many they didn't know what to do with them all. I mean do you really need the .854 to .689 to .636? Is it that big of a deal to go from .854 ALL the way down to .636 without the stopover at .689?

I actually think the 4R70W is still a fine transmission when properly modified. Sounds like the 6R80 needs some floorboard hacking to get to fit anyway.

XR7-4.6 said:
I never fully tallied it but I know with some degree of certainty I did my 5 speed swap for less than $1,450 even if I had to buy my tuning package to do it again. That’s including the transmission. Actually if that was my budget I probably would have bought a better driveshaft lol

This is such a weird hobby, every other guy claims they have a van LS swap with a eBay Turbo making 700 horsepower they put together for $500, but then a bespoke $1,450 trans controller is “affordable” 😆
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Yeah, I don't know where these guys are getting all of these perfectly running LS engines for $500. Maybe from a self serve junkyard with set prices on everything. All the LS engines I looked at were $1500+ with 500 billion miles on them out of a 3/4 ton truck that looked like it pulled a trailer full of bricks every day of its life.
 
I see what you guys mean, not trying to be “that guy” I just genuinely like seeing opposing views.

Anyways, when you say steeper gears, that mean’s either 3.73’s or 4.10’s maybe even higher depending the application. Which are great for acceleration but terrible in my opinion to highway RPM. Which is the main reason why I like the 6r specially the 10r, you get the benefit of crazy steep gears AND low highway RPM from boring 3.08/3.27’s. On top of that, I’m pretty sure the newer transmission are more efficient in every department compared to the 4R.

The 6R is pretty much a product of ZF Friedrichshafen, that ford was able to buy the rights for and make their own version of it. Which is pretty cool. Now, that same company has produced the 8HP70, 8 speed transmission that is in EVERYTHING from BMW to jaguars to everything. My thinking is, if 6 speeds are so good why would the engineers go with an additional 2 gears in the new version? I’m assuming they saw the benefit of more gear, on top of all that it’s a way faster shifting trans, several times more efficient than the 6R. Which is why I’m pretty sure why ford went with 10 speeds to be able to compete with them.

6r80 vs 8hp70

4.17 vs 4.714
2.35 vs 3.143
1.52 vs 2.106
1.14 vs 1.667
.87 Vs 1.285
.69 Vs 1.000
0.839
0.667


/end rant 😅
 
I was thinking what would be the right mod for  my driving style (think comfy cruising with an affinity for quick take-offs). Combine 2.73s with a high-stall torque converter; you effectively get a bigger ratio spread while still using the same four speeds.

@Chingon1
I think nobody argues with the benefits of a higher number of gears ratios. In theory, a CVT (with infinite gear ratios) is the ideal transmission; it just doesn't feel good and generally has significant torque limitations. I owned an 8-speed Jetta in NYC; by the time you reached the 25 mph speed limit, it had shifted four times, and the shifts were very crisp/noticeable.

Also, nobody argues with gear spread - to a usable extent. I once had a Chrysler 200 4-cyl rental with the ZF 9-speed transaxle. I drove it at highway speeds around Dallas, and it never shifted into 9th. I suppose it would use that 9th gear at higher speeds, but with a fairly gutless engine, possibly only when going downhill.


When it comes to personal preferences, I like an automatic that shifts like I would. I grew up in Germany with 4- and 5-speed manuals; I think that's why older automatics generally feel most intuitive to me. I'm always aware which gear the automatic is in; it never fades into the background for me. In the Jetta, sometimes I wasn't sure if it was in 6th or 7th, and I found that irritating; I briefly shifted into M to display the gear. The best automatics I owned were 6-speeds, especially late model Mazdas.

I have some criticisms about the 4R70W, but they're mostly nitpicky. I'd prefer a 2.73 rear, but I don't consider the effort of installation justified. I'm not even sure the engine would like lower revs on the highway; it may be happier the way it is. I hate when it upshifts mid-turn. And I think there should be some tune to prevent torque converter lockup below say 1,300 rpm, because it just lugs the engine.
 
More gears are for better fuel economy, not better performance. I'm some instances there is a benefit to an extra couple of gears. That's mostly on lower power cars, or hyper narrow power-band cars.
 
Chingon1 said:
My thinking is, if 6 speeds are so good why would the engineers go with an additional 2 gears in the new version? I’m assuming they saw the benefit of more gear, on top of all that it’s a way faster shifting trans, several times more efficient than the 6R. Which is why I’m pretty sure why ford went with 10 speeds to be able to compete with them.

6r80 vs 8hp70

4.17 vs 4.714
2.35 vs 3.143
1.52 vs 2.106
1.14 vs 1.667
.87 Vs 1.285
.69 Vs 1.000
0.839
0.667


/end rant 😅
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Because it’s more cost effective to make a one size fits all transmission that works with a variety of engines rather than multiple catered to one or another. Wouldn’t you agree that the number of gears and these ratios would benefit the performance of a small displacement engine with a narrower/peskier torque curve *more* than a larger displacement V8 with a typically flat curve?

That’s the reality of why the industry is developing them, because V8s are dinosaurs in terms of fuel consumption, yet are still the the benchmark for performance, all these complex teeny turbo motors and dozen speed autos are doing is mimicking what old big block V8s already drove like with 2 speed powerglides in the 60s 😆
 
Oh yea definitely agree, small 4 cylinders could really use plenty of ratios to help it off the line. And it’s crazy I love noticed how all these the engine small turbo combos are like 70-80’s v8’s, big torque down low nothing up top haha.

These are some dunks I found on a 4.6 FB forum. Both vortech with some bolts on’s. By the looks of it they are kinda soggy below 3000RPM, which is where the majority of daily driving happens.



IMG_7509.jpegIMG_7511.jpeg


That on top of the almost 4000lb weight, they could really use some help off the line.
 
Chingon1 said:
Oh yea definitely agree, small 4 cylinders could really use plenty of ratios to help it off the line. And it’s crazy I love noticed how all these the engine small turbo combos are like 70-80’s v8’s, big torque down low nothing up top haha.

These are some dunks I found on a 4.6 FB forum. Both vortech with some bolts on’s. By the looks of it they are kinda soggy below 3000RPM, which is where the majority of daily driving happens.



View attachment 14067View attachment 14068
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If you’re looking at where the curve “jumps” that’s where the dyno operator goes to WOT to do the full pull to redline. If you were looking at the curve from idle it would be much more gradual. Up to where the actual torque curve starts in the pull at around 2200 in the first graph and 2700 in the second graph and neither number ~240 in the first and over 300 in the second is exactly low on torque there.

That on top of the almost 4000lb weight, they could really use some help off the line.
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That’s where stall converters come in. Remember the greatest byproduct of a torque converter is torque multiplication, higher stall increases that exponentially.
 
Higher stall? I put a maurader converter in mine when I pulled the engine and it’s a lil upgrade over the stocker. I’m not much of a fan of having a 3k+ converter for a daily driver, they rev too much to drive it comfortably for me.

I didn’t know that thanks for clearing that up. I always knew autos make more torque but I didn’t know exactly why.

So now the questions becomes, what’s the best gear for auto/manuel?? I kinda have my heart set on some 4.10’s because I don’t really drive my bird on freeways much these days.



If I’m being honest I have my heart set on those bmw DCT’s!!! Them bitches are AMAZING!
 
Stall speed is when it stops multiplying torque. So maybe you're getting 2x torque between idle and s little over 2000 RPM with the marauder TC when its unlocked. 😉

Actual wheel torque is engine output at RPM x TC ( if relevant ) x transmission gear ratios x final drive ratio x % of drivrtrain loss ( auto has more loss than manual )

So for example, in theory my SC makes 330 ft lbs at 2500 x 3.75 first gear x 3.31 rear = it takes a LOT of torque to actually launch a 4000 pound car.
 
Chingon1 said:
Higher stall? I put a maurader converter in mine when I pulled the engine and it’s a lil upgrade over the stocker. I’m not much of a fan of having a 3k+ converter for a daily driver, they rev too much to drive it comfortably for me.

I didn’t know that thanks for clearing that up. I always knew autos make more torque but I didn’t know exactly why.

So now the questions becomes, what’s the best gear for auto/manuel?? I kinda have my heart set on some 4.10’s because I don’t really drive my bird on freeways much these days.



If I’m being honest I have my heart set on those bmw DCT’s!!! Them bitches are AMAZING!
Click to expand...

You can make a 3k stall pretty drivable with a good tune, keep in mind 4R70ws use lock up torque converters so at cruise they’re no less efficient than the stock converter.


I feel for a fun daily that sees highway speeds 3.73s are gold standard perfection for a 4R70w. The mpg drop with them from the stock 3.08 and 3.27s is like 1-3 max depending on your freeway cruising speeds. I have a manual with 4.30s, which seems completely apples and oranges for the topic at hand, but with the super tall .62 overdrive it is identical in RPM in OD to a 4R70w with 3.73s. With the centrifugal supercharger you’ve got you’ll love them(truthfully if you really rarely see freeways I probably would go 4.10s)
 
Here’s a pretty sweet deal on a complete 6R swap for anybody interested.

https://www.facebook.com/marketplace/item/1252025269940410/?mibextid=wwXIfr



I know lock up converters (lock up) when needed to improve efficiency it I didn’t know they doubled torque while unlocked. To me, when out of boost anything under 3k it feel pretty lame. I drove a 5.4 explorer and godamn that bitch just leaves the line with all that down low torque.

I am pretty tempted to get those 4.10’s tho, I can hit up the JY and snag a whole pumpkin out a thunderbird with trac loc, rebuild the clutch pack for pretty cheap. Now my question is, are explorer 8.8 gears swappable into the IRS??
 
Assuming the transmission isn't completely trashed, that seems like a pretty good deal for that trans and controller with harness.

Ring and pinion should all be the same for 8.8". It is the differential itself that differs.
 
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