Thoughts on MHS PI H/C and stock bottom end

theterminator93

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1997 Thunderbird 4.6, 1998 Mark VIII LSC
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Original post date 1/2/12

Okay, so this spring the bird's getting some trans goodies, with the expectation that next winter will bring ported heads and cams. I've done some looking around and I'm thinking about going with Nick's stage 2 PI head and stage 2P cams combo, with the modified valves etc. I'm hoping for a fun street toy; 280-290 RWHP is the goal.

The thought is to swap the heads and cams, keep the PI intake, and leave the stock bottom end be (I won't be pulling the engine). I've read some varying info on the durability of the stock bottom end when it comes to RPM though. I understand the stock crank should be fine in such a combo up to 7000 or thereabouts, here the worry is the rods. My question is if I'd be safe with the stock bottom end with such a H/C combo, and what a reasonable RPM limit would be such to keep things in one piece. I'm assuming it should be okay up to 6300-6500, but I'll be the first to admit I'm not the most knowledgeable on this topic.
 
95LX4.6 said:
Like you sir, I'm no expert. From what I've heard, you should be fine up to 6,500 RPM np with the bottom end being stock. That's just my opinion, but I have done lots of reading on this, so I think it's a good opinion lol.

I'm sure someone more knowledgable will chime in here :biggrin:

General Zod said:
A good limit would be 6500 IMO.


Arrighty, good to know.

Now if I may, I read a few older posts of A-train's and it sounds like 24# injectors and a 190lph fuel pump will also be in order. Question here being, should I just go with 30s so I have plenty of additional headroom, or would that be overkill for my application? The car will (hopefully) also be getting ported manifolds, possibly a new plenum and TB later down the road, and I plan to keep the 80mm GT MAF.
 
General Zod said:
so long as your tuner knows what he is doing, you can go with any larger size high impedance injector, within limits of course.

Thank you once again GM. Don Lasota will be my tuner. :thumbsup:

... although I wish I could just do it myself without blowing everything up... :smile:
 
N8tiveJuggalo17 said:
Sounds like you got a good plan set up. Let us know how it all goes. Good luck!

Boston-Bull said:
X2 Brandon :wink:

BIRD MAN said:
Having worked in Ford dealerships for over 20 years and also knowing many techs.
I also worked parts on back counter so I have decades of experience on what fails and what doesnt.

Basing my opinion on the fact that you are doing a street car around 300 h.p.

The bottom end is probably the strongest part of a stock 4.6 Romeo.

I'd leave it alone.

If the motor was out of the vehicle I'd put some new bearings in it.
Freshen it up.......tighten it up a bit.
Of course some people like a gap there for less drag on crank.
In fact I knew a guy that built his motors loose........of course every journal was equal to the other but his engines revved up quicker than any other builder I knew.

so.............cough.......
still
Other than that I wouldn't touch it.

oops cept maybe a new nice oil pump

Yep. On Nick's website the head/cam combo is highlighted as part of a 300 RWHP combo but he and I are both expecting closer to the 280-290 I mentioned above. That's mainly due to the T-bird's auto trans and IRS, plus I'm choosing the stage 2P cams over the stage 2.5 which is a sacrifice of about 5 RWHP for a wider torque curve. Daily driver, after all. :wink:

My parts list looks like this so far:

24# injectors
190 lph fuel pump
Braincoating ported/ceramic coated manifolds
Modular Head Shop stage 2 PI heads (Romeo)
Modular Head Shop stage 2P cams
EEC dyno tuning by Don Lasota
3500 stall 10" converter
Built 4R70W

And of course all the supporting stuff to go with it all. New timing chains and guides, stamped trigger wheel, rebuild/clean the injectors, new front and rear main seals, etc. :smile:
 
Boston-Bull said:
B your injectors come with the fuel rails. All still together :smile: Enjoy !

A nice surprise, Darren. :smile:

BTW, Michele said she'd have Preston get in touch with me over the weekend about getting some ported/coated manifolds. I'll ask him to drop you a line as well when he gets in touch with me.
 
Boston-Bull said:
Cool Brandon 'Thank you" for mentioning me , My manifolds now are "mildly " ported going for the full bore :wink:

General Zod said:
theterminator93 said:
Yep. On Nick's website the head/cam combo is highlighted as part of a 300 RWHP combo but he and I are both expecting closer to the 280-290 I mentioned above. That's mainly due to the T-bird's auto trans and IRS, plus I'm choosing the stage 2P cams over the stage 2.5 which is a sacrifice of about 5 RWHP for a wider torque curve. Daily driver, after all. :wink:

My parts list looks like this so far:

24# injectors
190 lph fuel pump
Braincoating ported/ceramic coated manifolds
Modular Head Shop stage 2 PI heads (Romeo)
Modular Head Shop stage 2P cams
EEC dyno tuning by Don Lasota
3500 stall 10" converter
2004 GT 4R70W

And of course all the supporting stuff to go with it all. New timing chains and guides, stamped trigger wheel, rebuild/clean the injectors, new front and rear main seals, etc.

:smile:
I have a brand new 1 piece crank gear I could sell you if want to ditch the crappy 2 piece crank gear setup .

Hm, I may take you up on that.... PM sent.
 
All righty - I have my 24# injectors here now. They are the older Bosch EV1 style, same as these:

1694827539610.jpeg

I replaced both O-rings, inlet filter, pintle cap and spacer on all of them.

My question. IIRC the car has EV6s stock on it now (see pic below to confirm me on that), and I know the two use a different style connector. If I had the car available to me now I'd just go out and check for myself to be sure that I can't just use the 24s I have with my stock hardware, but since I don't I'm here. I see myself with two options if connectors are indeed different:
  • Sell the EV1s, buy EV6s
  • Buy pigtails for EV1s and splice them in
With option 1, I would use the money from selling the rebuilt EV1s for the EV6s. I know I'll spend more on a set of EV6s than I did on the EV1s (I got a great deal on the EV1s - thanks Darren!). I would also most likely rebuild the EV6s as well, depending on what I would end up with.

With option 2, I would have to buy 8 pigtails which would offset some of extra cost from upgrading and rebuilding EV6s.

Now, aside from my not having to splice the pigtails, would there be any advantages to using EV6s over EV1s in my application (e.g. better atomization/response time. etc.)?

Here is a shot of the stock injectors currently on the car. Took this pic when I did the PI intake swap 2 years ago.
1694827558200.jpeg
 
NetKeym said:
Brandon, you're killing me here. Look at the connectors on those two injectors and I think you will find they are EXACTLY THE SAME CONNECTOR.

I know because I have the same injectors you do - both sets! If you don't believe it, take them out and try to plug them in on the car.....

Also, I know that is a popular swap (I was going to do the same thing), but after seeing the difference between the way those skinny Bosch Type III injectors atomize the fuel, and those older Type II (the blue ones) do it - I'm not going to use them.

Let me find the video so you can see what I'm talking about.....

Here is one I found on youtube:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VfynoxL2RZI

You can just search for "type iii bosch" on youtube and check out other videos. Type III Bosch really does a nice job of atomizing the fuel while the earlier types look like a squirt gun!

That's what I was hoping but wasn't sure of based on the pics and reading. :smile:

I was thinking about "I could just try plugging my 24s into the car..." but since the car's at the body shop right now, that was out of the question...

Maybe when I get my car back I'll let some of you guys rest for a little while. Until then... :diablo:

But yes, if there's a definite advantage to using the newer style over the older style, I'll upgrade. I'll be close to the upper limit of 24s, so they need to do their job well.
 
NetKeym said:
Well, the only problems is the older styles will hurt mileage a little and increase wear on the engine because raw fuel rinses the oil from the sides of the cylinders faster than well atomized fuel.

Of course, we're talking long time longevity, so it depends on how long you plan on keeping the car (or how long before you want to rebuild it again).

General Zod said:
Not only that, better atomized fuel increases HP and fuel economy, hence D.I. in newer vehicles with necessary ultra-high fuel pressures. Partly the reason I'm gonna set up my fuel system to push ~70psi.

I was looking at these, but I can't tell if they use the new style connector or not (looks like they do based on part number searches): http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...m=220928705220

But then I found these, which look like they're the right style connector. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...m=280805587593

They look to be the 24# equivalent to the injectors currently on the car, the gen 3s which give good atomization.
 
Grog6 said:
General Zod said:
Not only that, better atomized fuel increases HP and fuel economy, hence D.I. in newer vehicles with necessary ultra-high fuel pressures. Partly the reason I'm gonna set up my fuel system to push ~70psi.
Are you going to use a model for the flow, or are you going to measure it?

I used ethanol to do a flow measurement in #/hr/duty cycle; it's fairly non-linear in spots... even at stock pressure.

That will be interesting, gm, for sure!

BTW, are the orange 19# injectors the type III?

NetKeym said:
theterminator93 said:
I was looking at these, but I can't tell if they use the new style connector or not (looks like they do based on part number searches): http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...m=220928705220

But then I found these, which look like they're the right style connector. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...m=280805587593

They look to be the 24# equivalent to the injectors currently on the car, the gen 3s which give good atomization.
That first set you listed is the different connector. The second set you listed, I would get a part number from the seller cause he says that's a "file photo" and not the particular set you will receive. Plus, I've never seen a 5.0L (old 5.0) that came with 24# injectors.....

Just my .02, hope it helps.

General Zod said:
Dont get any of that ebay crap. Lots of chinese counterfeits are being sold with oem markings to fool people. Or at least be very very careful who you buy from.

Grog6 said:
Are you going to use a model for the flow, or are you going to measure it?

I used ethanol to do a flow measurement in #/hr/duty cycle; it's fairly non-linear in spots... even at stock pressure.

That will be interesting, gm, for sure!

BTW, are the orange 19# injectors the type III?

I've been told that I can use the datasheet for Ford Racing 39#/hr injectors for my Cobra 39#ers. It has the multipliers for all the injector data for up to 60psi, so I'll just extrapolate it for another 10psi. If that doesn't work, I'll simply stick with 60psi. Not only that, I'm gonna time the injector delay table to inject all the fuel right when the intake port velocity is greatest, at any given load/rpm. At 8k, I think the intake port peaks at mach
0.48 or so (350mph) :eek:

Interesting. I'll just bide my time and wait for a good set to turn up here on the forums. :thumbsup:

Any news on that crank gear GM?
 
General Zod said:
your best bet for a good price on injectors is used. From a mustang owner or MMR. I know MMR has a bad rap for some of their products, but they shelve a lot of brand new take-offs from cars they work on and sell them at really good prices. The rebuild KIT is only $20 and you can flush them out yourself if you wanna clean them via this youtube video

for the crank gear, just send me $22 and its yours including shipping. I haven't checked but I believe its around $35 brand new.

paintme205 said:
A little late but just figured I would throw this out. Your RPM limit should be be between 6500 and 6700. I say this because any higher and your killing your acceleration and any lower and you are doing the same. Your shift points will be in that range I am guessing for optimum acceleration. Just remember this, the lower you shift, the slower you go, but the longer your engine will last. Me personally, I wouldn't hesitate to shift at 6600 all day long. Any higher and I would start saving for a shortblock.

NetKeym said:
theterminator93 said:
Interesting. I'll just bide my time and wait for a good set to turn up here on the forums. :thumbsup:

Any news on that crank gear GM?

Brandon, if you're gonna pay $100 for a set of used injectors, you may want to consider spending $220 for a brand new set of 30# from Jegs:
http://www.jegs.com/i/Ford%20Racing/...0002/-1?CT=999

General Zod said:
$100 difference lol....oh well, it's his money. I'll stick with my used cobra 39 lb/hr blue giants I got for $100 :smile:

NetKeym said:
I said, "...may..." smart-butt. :tongue:

Just trying to show all the options...

Lol... you two guys...

I'm hoping to find a set of them for under $100, even $80 if possible. I've got roughly a year to accumulate parts, so I'm not in any hurry. I used the instructions on oldfuelinjection.com for cleaning/rebuilding the injectors; it seemed to work well. :smile:

GM, PM me your paypal address and I'll send you the money for the gear.

paintme, thanks for the input. I think 6500 sounds like a nice, happy shift point. It depends how the datalogs look, but I feel that's a safe number.
 
Grog6 said:
The biggest Important unknown I've found on these cars is the condition of the oil galleys and lash adjusters in the heads. :smile:

Few of us got these new... :roll:

The engine in Lazarus, which has had synthetic oil every 2500-3k miles since it had 30k miles on it handled bouncing off the 5500r rev limiter multiple times with no engine issues at all. (Not a ride I would recommend; check those engine mounts, lol.)

The Red Cougar dropped a valve the first time it hit the 5500r rev limiter after a PI intake swap, lol. That engine was nasty, even tho I'd been running good oil and seafoam thru it, as I found out postmortem.

As far as the injectors, check local JYs for lincolns with blown motors; they are 24#.

You might luck across an aviator motor for cheap. :smile:

Okay guys, more advice just because I'm impatient! :smile:

The car is going out this weekend for my torque converter and transmission. After that I'm getting a tune from Don to account for my ability to shift higher. My rev limit of 6500 with my planned setup makes more sense having heads that flow well, but I doubt there will be much point going that high with the stock heads. Not to mention I don't know how safe the stock valvetrain would be up that high. The car would have to last as my DD up through October at the very least. :wink:

I'll eventually get some datalogs with the acceleration rate so I can have Don optimize the shift points, but like I said, I'm impatient and am curious to know what I should expect. Will I run out of power by 6000? 6300? And with the stock springs etc., will it even be safe that high?
 
Grog6 said:
6500 on the stock valvetrain isn't a problem, it's other stuff.

130k on these cars is "well broken in." As long as it's had the oil changed on time, it will rock.

You're dealing with the tranny stuff that IS an issue.

I've seen Lazarus bounce the tach off the stop (a few times) while I was breaking wheels; I didn't have any input at the time, but I remember going "damn!" (as I was trying to turn off the key...)

The car is fine, and isn't using any more oil, and still has the same 22mpg mileage.

Yeah, having the trans build coming before all the extra RPM was a no brainer, at least for me... :smile:

I change the oil every 5k; full synthetic. When I did the cams a couple years ago everything looked reasonably clean up top, so I'm not worried about sludge or grime. The car does seem to use a little oil - a quart or so between changes (that 5k is yearly). I get 20ish in the city, 22-23 on the highway.

I guess what I'm worried about is valves floating on the stock springs.

Thanks for your thoughts Grog, it's always appreciated and welcome. :smile:
 
NetKeym said:
This is what I would do if I was you. After you get the car back from Alan, take it to a dyno - it's well worth the $50-$75 to know what kind of power "under the curve" is going on. That will tell you if you want to lower your rev limiter or not. If not, then worry about what will need some extra work (like bee-hive valve springs) if you continue to rev it to 6500.

Personally, I think you're gonna find that going that high isn't optimum for your pulling power, but what do I know! :biggrin: Makes sense to me, anyways.

Tbird1997 said:
I'm with Rick I would wait til you get your heads and cams in THEN get your tune from Don; assuming your getting a dyno tune...

On the other hand if your getting the 'off the shelf' tune (I don't know if you have a hand held tuner or chip or what) but on my SCT flip chip I can hold a couple of different tunes. So why wouldn't you get the tune from Don but just run your current tune until you get your heads and cams in then run the new tune? :zshrug: That way you won't have to risk running your stock heads and cams all the way to 6500 rpm

I need to get my shift points adjusted regardless due to the higher stall and gears. Plus I'm anxious to get the loonie tune off my car, there are a few quirks with it that have been driving me nuts over the last 2.5 years. I've got an xcal2.

I'll probably get it dynoed anyway to see what the curves are like. Plus I'm curious to know what the numbers are with my setup. Just for the graphs, no tuning. Just because I can run it to 6500 doesn't mean I will; the graphs and logs will dictate that.
 
NetKeym said:
Great! And post those graphs in the dyno thread! Maybe there is a 'dyno day' coming up near you - those are generally cheaper...

Tbird1997 said:
I think I read over on Don's site that each additional tune is $30? bucks (don't quote me on this). I don't know if that is worth it to you or not BUT if you hate your current tune and could be without Nick's stage 2 heads and cams til October.. it might be worth the extra 30 bucks for a separate tune til then..


ACtually you should because I've also noticed some flaws with Lonnie's tune on my car and I am curious if there's going to be a real difference between Lonnie's tune and when I get Don's tune.. :biggrin:

Grog6 said:
theterminator93 said:
I guess what I'm worried about is valves floating on the stock springs.
I'd worry there too; I've been looking at this:


Stage 1s aren't too bad on the budget... :smile:
and springs start at 350... :biggrin:

I just need to fall across some nice pistons and a forged crank, lol.

Tbird1997 said:
ACtually you should because I've also noticed some flaws with Lonnie's tune on my car and I am curious if there's going to be a real difference between Lonnie's tune and when I get Don's tune.. :biggrin:
Like the lack of WOT shifts, maybe? :facepalm: 3-4 I can see, but 2-3?

For argument's sake, my biggest complaints include...

1) converter doesn't lock in 2nd; although he swore up and down it was programmed to
2) converter lockup schedule is screwy, which I won't go into details over because it's too horrid to put to words

Hmm, I had a thought. I could have Nick deck the heads which would drop the combustion chamber volume down to 39.5 CCs, bumping the compression from 10.38 to 10.87. My question is with my cam choice, will I still be able to run 93 pump gas?
 
95LX4.6 said:
That's what I planned on doing to the heads I get, when I get around to getting them lol. I plan on using their 2.5 cams with the stage 2 heads ... Decked. I think that will run on 93 no prob from the research I've done. I also second or third (wherever we are at on the count) for a tune from Don Lasota. Remember all these other tuners are using the book that Don literally wrote.... why not just go to the author IMO. Just my 0.02

Grog6 said:
theterminator93 said:
For argument's sake, my biggest complaints include...

1) converter doesn't lock in 2nd; although he swore up and down it was programmed to
2) converter lockup schedule is screwy, which I won't go into details over because it's too horrid to put to words
If it's a stock converter, it could be trying, lol.

A PI intake and exhaust will spin a stock converter clutch in 2nd at the powerband. :thumbsup:

And spin the stock driveshaft inside each other, mimicking a tranny failure, lol.

Are you using an aftermarket converter?

(not saying that's what's happening!!)

You can log the converter flag, and the slippage, and it can give you a handle on what's happening I had to do that before Alan's TC went in.

If the TC stays locked, the engine even runs cooler.

Same deal with both the stock 12" unit and the 2002 11 1/4" I have in the car now. It has no problem locking after the shift into 3rd and the in to out ratio always stays at .98 or better when locked.
 
Tbird1997 said:
Mine does not lock up in second either, I do have the stock POS converter tho. It also does not like shifting into 2nd at 25 mph where I think its supposed to down shift. There's a little bit of 'bucking' until it gets rolling or I put it in second. Idk its weird, I assume its just another fault on the tune tho.

Grog6 said:
If the two up/down shift lines cross, it will shift back and forth real fast... That is bad.

I do notice when it unlocks during shifts; and I wait until I'm moving good to lock it in 2nd. We need that torque multiplication (IMHO), with these beefy cars. :smile:

Well, I proved that it is indeed Lonnie's tune preventing it from locking in 2nd. It shifts into 2nd and no lockup is commanded. Shifts into 3rd, and lockup is commanded. Hmm, go figure. :facepalm: Seems like with arrogance comes ignorance.

And how to fuel trims work again? Long term under 1 and short term over 1 means it's adding fuel? My LTFTs hover between .95 and 1 and the STFTs switch between .98 and 1.02 like they're supposed to.
 
General Zod said:
Check the sticky in the eec tuning forum about datalogging on the x-cal2.

Well, got my LaSota tune as well as my "baseline" dyno graph. Locks up in 2nd, so take that Lonnie!

Anyway - here's the graph and a video of the last (3rd) pull. Don suggested that I learn the PRP software so I think my next 'big' purchase is going to be that along with his manuals. Guess the heads/cams will have to wait a little longer than I expected, depending how my work situation pans out it may or may not happen this year like I was hoping.

(no idea where my first dyno graph went... it was 212 RWHP/280 RWTQ)

 
Chris_Murder said:
Good TQ number. How do you like the Lasota tune?

General Zod said:
What are your overall goals for this car?

Right now I'm trying to get it a little more street friendly - I've gotten used to the stall but the shift schedule is a little different than I'd like. I can't have Don keep playing with things to have me try them out, since that is more or less something that could go on indefinitely. So in the near future I'll take the plunge with the PRP so I can learn and adjust. As a whole though, the car feels infinitely better with the LaSota tune than it did with the BOC tune. Don's results and professionalism are simply unmatched. :thumbsup:

In the end I'm hoping to get it close to 280-290 RWHP N/A while maintaining as much streetability and fuel economy as possible. I'm not looking for a track car, just a fun street machine I can take out on more than just weekends. At this point I'm starting to consider more than just a head/cam swap by pulling the iron block and either rebuilding it or putting in an Explorer motor with the MHS heads. Once I get the car where I want it as it is now I'll be able to do some more thinking about which direction I ultimately take with the motor. The only thing I'm sure about now is MHS heads and cams.

Okay so - stupid question.

With 93 pump gas being the fuel of choice in my combo, will there be enough spark head room to take advantage of the additional compression from decking the heads .030" for a 39.5cc chamber? Since I'm using the shallower dished npi pistions, my compression should be in the neighborhood of 10.9 compared to the 10.4 you'd get from a simple PI headswap.
 
General Zod said:
what cams and are they degree'd?

They'll be his n/a street/strip stage 2P cams and he'll be degreeing them and fully assembling the heads with cams and hardware before they go out. Here are the specs on the cam:

.050 Duration 225/223
Lift at valve 550/500
Centerlines 108/108
LSA 108
 
General Zod said:
So long as they wont be degree'd any earlier than the cam's ground-in intake centerline, it should be ok. If you go down to 106 or lower that will bring up cylinder pressures.

Tbird1997 said:
Nice torque numbers. Your horsepower numbers look a little low tho any idea why?

Edit: maybe not with 18% drive train loss that puts you right at 260 at the fly wheel. I just kinda expected you to be up around the 220 or 230 area.. Like others I've seen

The first pull was 206, second was 209 and the third was 212 - I dunno, maybe if I had done 4 or 5 pulls it would have made it to 215. Plus I can probably fudge the numbers a little and say "it would have made 213 or 214 if you continue the curve into that dip at the peak"...

Either way I'm satisfied with the 'baseline' numbers. From what I've read 14.4% is 'the number' for our chassis so that puts me at about 250 flywheel or 45 more than stock. If I assume 10 from the intake, 10 from the cams, 10 from the tune, 10 from the exhaust and 5 from the water pump and underdrives, the numbers all seem right where they should be. Either way I'm aiming for a 70-80 HP increase with the heads, cams, TB/plenum and ported manifolds... I'm not sure if those numbers are realistic. I guess I'll find out when I get there.
 
General Zod said:
Tbird1997 said:
Nice torque numbers. Your horsepower numbers look a little low tho any idea why?

Edit: maybe not with 18% drive train loss that puts you right at 260 at the fly wheel. I just kinda expected you to be up around the 220 or 230 area.. Like others I've seen
you've seen other 4.6 MN12s with NPI heads/PI cams/PI intake tuned put down 230 rwhp?

That would imply that a tune + PI cams/intake on NPI heads produce around ~280 BHP. :bs:

Tbird1997 said:
Mmmm that doesn't seem right does it?... Maybe a Mustang dyno?... Let me see what I can find I know I have seen this before...


EDIT:

here
This guy is running PI heads but that is only supposed to be about a 10 hp difference in compression from my understanding.

Also Traveler
He also has PI heads.

This guy is only 11 hp below Brandon and he doesn't even have a PI intake..

Johnny Langton said:
Contrary to what 94DD is saying,the Mark8 rods are the same as the '96-'98 Cobras,and are a slightly better rosd than the 2V part. Sometime in '99,Ford decided that the 2V rod was good enough for all of the modular 4.6L's(probably saved a few pennies to use it instead of the 4V rod),and swapped over to it on all of them.
The 2.8cc dish of the Mark8/Cobra pistons will yeild approx 10.5:1 CR with a NPI head(depending on deck height,etc)and will make good power/torque with a decent set of heads on top.
I know of one car that's making around 280rwhp with a stock mark shortblock,and a set of ported NPI's. He's using a stock PI intake manifold,and a set of Kooks.
I'd say you'll be around approx 250rwhp with the manifolds if they're cleaned up good,and if you have decent exhaust on the car.
I was making right around 230rwhp with PI cams and ported exhaust manifolds with 2.25" compression bent duals. That was with the old terrible NPI intake too.
JL
(last sentence)
Can't find JL's dyno chart for this but I'm sure its out there..

I am not knockin Brandon's ride or his dyno numbers by any means but I think there is def more in it. The one thing I did notice is Brandon's torque curves are well above most of the other guys.

Correct me if I am missing something. Maybe its the luck of the draw. :zshrug:

SuperThunderbirdLX said:
I'm assuming he's not milking the engine for all its worth. He just wanted a decent tune for both reliability and driveability

NetKeym said:
General Zod said:
So long as they wont be degree'd any earlier than the cam's ground-in intake centerline, it should be ok. If you go down to 106 or lower that will bring up cylinder pressures.
I would think anything earlier than 106 would put the valves into the pistons. :zdunno

:zshrug: It is what it is - I'm still content with the 45-50 HP I've gained with the minor mods I've done. I haven't done a thing to the throttle body, plenum or exhaust manifolds and I'm sure Don didn't go crazy with the tune either since it was mail order. He'll be dyno tuning it when I do the head swap however. I'm now starting to wonder about the heads - Nick has some ugly ducklings available and I can get the stage 3 heads right now for less than the stage 2s... Hm...
 
General Zod said:
Just remember that more flow is not the same as increasing engine displacement, which would vertically raise both the Torque and HP curves. More flow means everything is shifted up on the RPM band, and depending on things like bottom end, intake, converter stall, gearing, etc, more flow might not be beneficial to you if you can't tap into it way up on the tach which is where the improvement is gonna be.

Don't get me wrong, they'll likely make a bit more power, but make sure you are willing to make the necessary changes that I described in the previous paragraph in order to be able to tap into that extra power.

That's kind of what I had at the back of my mind as I thought about it when I was looking at the flow charts between stock/stage 1/stage 2. I think with the stock rotating assembly and intake limiting my shift points to 6200-6300 I should focus on making the power down in the 4-5000 range - hence my initial decision to use the stage 2P cam over the stage 2.5 cam. I've got the stall and gear to run it where the powerband kicks in up high, but for the moment I'm not sure that's the direction I want to take. This is a street car, after all; while I think it would be fun to run it at the strip a couple times to see what's in it... I highly doubt that I'll be turning it into a track machine.

Just placed my order for the heads and cams. :zbang:

Nick was able to get me a set of the older 5-thread Romeo stage 2 heads for a bit less so I jumped on them. It'll be a little while before the cams come in, but I should have these in a month or so.

Parts gathering... the anticipation builds... :biggrin:
 
General Zod said:
I know the feeling of anticipation

One piece of the puzzle... time to start getting nitty-gritty! :biggrin:

(picture I can't find of the SCT PRP I had just received)
 
Chris_Murder said:
Did you order a reputable Wideband yet? I wouldn't fiddle around much without one.

Not yet, no - I know I'll need one when I start tuning after the heads and cams for sure. For now I'm mostly going to be playing with the trans functions. Since Don includes a base tune with orders of the PRP and because I ordered the PRP after I had him write and dial in my tune, he was kind enough to include that tune with the software as my base tune. (Could you imagine Lonnie ever doing something like that? lol)

The only thing I should really need to adjust with the new combo (since I'm keeping the same MAF and injectors I have now) is spark and the shift points. I may also end up having to play with the injector delay because of the different cam profiles.
 
XR7-4.6 said:
Yep I still haven't bought a wideband yet. There's plenty of stuff in there that will keep you occupied until you get one.

BTW - I have to confess - the whole tuning your own car thing is ADDICTIVE!

After about 2 hours of playing around with the converter settings and shift schedule I finally have the car feeling the way I want it to around town. There's a lot more work to be done with the transition between the low tps curves and the high tps curves...

This may be one of the more personally satisfying purchases I've made recently... :biggrin:
 
Hmm, what's that? There's something at the door? I probably shouldn't leave it in the rain...

IMG_3236.JPG

Oh, look at this. I wonder if that might be attached to something.

IMG_3238.JPG

Aha! A pair of MHS stage 2 PI heads and stage 2P cams. Just what I expected!

IMG_3240.JPGIMG_3241.JPG

And, on the side, a set of Braincoating's severely ported exhaust manifolds.
IMG_3237.JPG
 
Boston-Bull said:

General Zod said:
head look nice, right? :smile:

oh, double check the tensioner oil feed holes. Mine were not plugged but that could be because mine were not assembled at all.

I'll definitely be sure to have a look at that. I'll give them a good once-over as a whole before they go on (torque of all the bolts etc.). Plus I've got the cooling mod to consider - I gotta get in touch with Jason and get all that good stuff on order too.
 
NetKeym said:

Okay so...

I ordered/paid for stage 2 heads and cams, but when I unpacked them and looked at the invoice it said stage 3 heads and stage 2 cams. I figured it was a typo so I sent Nick an email to confirm... turns out he did indeed ship stage 3 heads and upgraded me at no charge. :eek: :zbang:
 
NetKeym said:
I always liked Nick! :biggrin:

Zoom Zoom, Brandon! :thumbsup:

Tbird1997 said:
Very nice! When you putting them on?

General Zod said:
Cool. You ALMOST have the same heads as me. :wink:

Hopefully in the next month or two - depending on a few things I may not have nearly as much free time as I am hoping to have. I am still waiting for the head bolts and gaskets from Nick to arrive and I need to order the timing drive parts from Jason too. I also have to make sure there will be no PTV issues with this setup. Strictly speaking it's my "winter project" this year. Ideally I'd like to have it back together before the end of the year so I can spend some time with the tune in the early months next year and have it back on the road by springtime.
 

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