Tremor while in gear & need help - 97 Thunderbird LX Sport 4.6L

Second gear engages the tc for a sec. 1st and reverse have it locked out. If it does it in all gears except neutral, that makes me think Pump.
 
Sounds like we have a vacuum leak somewhere..
I hope it's that simple...but have no idea where a vac leak could be, since replacing all the vac/emissions lines a couple months ago. And the tremor existed before I replaced all those lines.

I did buy this a few weeks ago (and a real vise, Icon snap ring plier set, and a big F'n wrench...LOL):
PITTSBURGH AUTOMOTIVE Fuel Pump and Vacuum Tester

But no idea where/how to use it to check for a vacuum leak or if that's possible.
This car has been so trouble-free since buying her eons ago, that my knowledge & troubleshooting skills for her are pretty weak.
The last time I did serious in-depth engine & other work on cars was when I owned a '74 Mark IV in the last century...but all that knowledge & experience is kinda useless with the Bird.
 
Business has been kooky. I need to come stop over soon and see this for myself and figure out the brakes.
 
Second gear engages the tc for a sec. 1st and reverse have it locked out. If it does it in all gears except neutral, that makes me think Pump.
Could the tranny fluid be the cause?

I drained & replaced the tranny fluid and filter, including draining the converter, with Motorcraft Mercon V back in 2014 with 58K on the clock. She now has 69K miles...so only 11K miles since the tranny fluid/filter was replaced.

But maybe the fluid is bad from age, not miles, and causing the tremor and 1st gear shudder, although the level is fine and still reddish?
(I know, I know...stupid to let the trans fluid go that long...but with only a 1K/year, I slacked)
 
10 years on the fluid is longer than like, but n my old use, that would be over 100k miles.
 
Could the tranny fluid be the cause?

I drained & replaced the tranny fluid and filter, including draining the converter, with Motorcraft Mercon V back in 2014 with 58K on the clock. She now has 69K miles...so only 11K miles since the tranny fluid/filter was replaced.

But maybe the fluid is bad from age, not miles, and causing the tremor and 1st gear shudder, although the level is fine and still reddish?
(I know, I know...stupid to let the trans fluid go that long...but with only a 1K/year, I slacked)
With your driving habits I doubt the fluid is the issue.
 
Your best bet is to get with Gordo, and have him look at it. It's worth paying for. Rando's on a webforum can only help so much.
 
Your best bet is to get with Gordo, and have him look at it. It's worth paying for. Rando's on a webforum can only help so much.
I've been trying, but his schedule is rough. It's been hard enough trying to get with him to figure out why my new brakes/rebuilt calipers are not firm since February, although I've thrown money at the issue...and he threw a new master cylinder at it and confirmed all my brake work was tight. Maybe air still in the system, but we bled/pumped quarts of brake fluid through it and no joy. Ongoing mystery.

I don't consider you guys 'randos', though. We've all seen and/or talked to each other for years on TCCoA & here. Some of you are pretty sharp & knowledgeable about these cars and can nail an issue down pretty well. I've learned tons from all of you, just reading your postings and asking when I've had Bird issues.
 
Update on tremor:
Just went to the parts store for the EGR gasket and this is what I observed in the garage when I returned home:

  1. In Reverse, Drive, and 1st & 2nd = Tremor exists
  2. In Park and Neutral = No tremor
  3. BUT...if I go from Park or Neutral directly to 1st = RPM's suddenly drop to 500 (dash tach), car shudders heavily for a moment like she's going to stall, then RPM's come back up to in-gear normal RPM's and the normal tremor resumes. The 500 RPM & heavy shudder lasts only a couple of seconds before resuming normal in-gear RPM's and normal tremor. Going from any other gear to 1st doesn't cause this...only from Park or Neutral directly to 1st.
Man, if we was talking carburetors I'd say your air/fuel mixture screw is off as well as the idle screw... but on FI, not sure....
 
I don't think the mixture is off, unless the O2s and MAF are out of whack. I didn't see any signs in the datalogs.

If there was a vacuum leak, it would show lean at idle, and slowly return to (close to) normal during driving. The fuel trims were about the same at 40 MPH and 1200 RPM as they were at 0, with the engine at 600 RPM.

Not saying it's not possible, but the data makes it unlikely.

If anything, it's showing that it's slightly rich (assuming I am interpreting how FORscan records fuel trims correctly; I'm used to SCT's software).

I do however feel like the amount of air entering at idle is out of spec, but I don't think it's unmetered.
 
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Sounds like you got a lot of advice on this issue. My two cents comes from my Town Car that has a 4.6l engine, around the same year. When I started getting tremors, it turned out to be the plug wires. Once I replaced those, it stopped.

Just my two cents....
 
Your best bet is to get with Gordo, and have him look at it. It's worth paying for. Rando's on a webforum can only help so much.
Greg, James and I have known each other for a long time. His car is beautiful. We just live like 22 miles away from each other so it's tought to cross paths sometime. We will get together for sure.
 
Neuro, I don’t remember from earlier in this thread, have you cleaned the MAF?
When I bought my 96 it was throwing lean codes for both banks after chasing it for a while and doing things that needed to be done anyway finally one day looking at the data the MAF flow just didn’t look quite right. Changed it out with one I had on the shelf and bam all good.
I suspect K&N oil killed it.
 
Sounds like you got a lot of advice on this issue. My two cents comes from my Town Car that has a 4.6l engine, around the same year. When I started getting tremors, it turned out to be the plug wires. Once I replaced those, it stopped.

Just my two cents....
Yeah, a lot of advice & maybe's, but nothing concrete...seems to be quite the stumper for everyone.
I'm trying to solve the issue without blindly throwing tons of parts/money at it and hoping.

Replaced the plugs, wires, and coils with Motorcraft parts 2-3 months ago, before the tremor started, as age-related maintenance, because the wires/coils were original.
Tremor started a couple weeks after that.

Recently cleaned the IAC and the MAF was spotless (surprising after 27 years). Also recently replaced all the vac/emissions hoses.

As per all the advice, my next move tonight/this weekend is to test the EGR, check the plugs/wires...and if that doesn't work, to put the old coils back on and see if the new coils are the issue.
 
Greg, James and I have known each other for a long time. His car is beautiful. We just live like 22 miles away from each other so it's tought to cross paths sometime. We will get together for sure.
Been saying that for months, Gordon :D

shopping 01252024.jpg
 
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Neuro, I don’t remember from earlier in this thread, have you cleaned the MAF?
When I bought my 96 it was throwing lean codes for both banks after chasing it for a while and doing things that needed to be done anyway finally one day looking at the data the MAF flow just didn’t look quite right. Changed it out with one I had on the shelf and bam all good.
I suspect K&N oil killed it.
Yes...pulled the MAF (original) a couple months ago...and although it was spotless, still spray-cleaned it with MAF cleaner without touching the wire.
Also pulled the IAC and cleaned the carbon out of it and reinstalled with new gasket.

No change whatsoever...tremor remains.

I have no problem buying a new MAF, but don't want to blindly throw money & parts at the issue.

IMG_20240313_040325.jpg
 
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Yeah, a lot of advice & maybe's, but nothing concrete...seems to be quite the stumper for everyone.
I'm trying to solve the issue without blindly throwing tons of parts/money at it and hoping.

Replaced the plugs, wires, and coils with Motorcraft parts 2-3 months ago, before the tremor started, as age-related maintenance, because the wires/coils were original.
Tremor started a couple weeks after that.

Recently cleaned the IAC and the MAF was spotless (surprising after 27 years). Also recently replaced all the vac/emissions hoses.

As per all the advice, my next move tonight/this weekend is to test the EGR, check the plugs/wires...and if that doesn't work, to put the old coils back on and see if the new coils are the issue.
What did you clean the MAF with? I hope it was MAF cleaner. If not, you could have messed up the MAF. The MAF could be bad too. Know anyone with the same engine you could do a swap with just see if it runs better with their MAF?

Smart man on the Motorcraft parts.
 
Terminator, to clarify your clarification: are you stating that the O2s directly affect the short term fuel trims and not long?
Or is your statement b/c the trims are in spec ie close to 0 then the MAF and O2s are equally bad? In this theoretical scenario.
 
What did you clean the MAF with? I hope it was MAF cleaner. If not, you could have messed up the MAF. The MAF could be bad too. Know anyone with the same engine you could do a swap with just see if it runs better with their MAF?

Smart man on the Motorcraft parts.
Yes, with MAF cleaner spray and never touched the wires.
I'm a tech & science guy with a genetic need to read/research everything and be painfully particular & precise, especially with The Car.

Even Gordon will attest to this...as well as ex-girlfriends who malfunctioned & ran away screaming. 8-)

Unfortunately, no other Birds to swap & test the MAF.
It's the original MAF and was spotless before cleaning it, which surprised me. Other than the tremor (and schiffy gas mileage), her response & performance are great...so not sure the MAF could be the culprit.

Problem is that I just don't know enough about these cars to be able to zero in on the issue, like you guys can. In all the years I've owned her, she's been relatively trouble-free, so there hasn't been much to fix or troubleshoot, beyond normal maintenance.

Anyway, all I can do is drill through the suggestions from others in this posting & others, in a process of elimination.
I put my old coil packs on a couple nights ago, but haven't driven enough to eliminate the new coils as the issue.
Next is testing the EGR for leaks, then pulling it to clean any carbon build-up.

Whatever is causing the tremor, I have a feeling it's something insanely simple & easy to fix.
 
Just remember - the datalogs showed:

Long term fuel trims 4-8% enrichment
Short term fuel trims consistent with nominal O2 switching

This means that if the MAF is bad, the O2s are also bad by the same margin. :)
Umm...I have no idea what you just said or what it means.
I looked at the FORScan data, but have no idea how to interpret it, like you just did.
Where do you guys learn this stuff?
And please explain to me what you just said. 8-)
 
Pipe down everyone, class is now in session! 🤓

The MAF sensor tells the PCM how much air enters the engine. It uses this data to determine how much fuel to inject, and also is able to calculate the cylinder pressures and determine the appropriate amount of spark advance.

Once the combustion cycle completes, the oxygen in the exhaust gases is measured by the O2 sensors. Under normal conditions the car runs at "stoich" or the perfect air:fuel ratio to ensure complete combustion of all the fuel and oxygen in the air, which is 14.08 parts fuel to air (for E10).

However...........

The car doesn't run at 14.08:1 all the time. It actually switches from slightly lean to slightly rich every couple seconds, centered around perfect stoich.

The two fuel trims - short term and long term - refer to different things.

Short term trim refers to commanded lambda. Long term is a correction factor at a given mass of air.

Lambda refers to a linear scalar of AFR that is independent of fuel type. Lambda 1 is always stoich. Lambda under 1 is rich, and over 1 is lean. E10 stoich is 14.08:1. E0 is 14.64. It's easy to convert lambda to AFR as long as you know the fuel type (stoich) - .85 lambda with E10 is about 12:1.

The STFT, when logged, will show the switching of the fuel system around lambda 1. If you log STFT most of the time it'll be switching between .98 and 1.02 or so. This is assuming all is perfect with the car.

HOWEVER it only does this when it's in "closed loop" - O2 feedback mode. Open loop is where the PCM is only using the MAF sensor. The car runs in closed loop all the time except just after it the engine has started or if you're getting on the throttle. (This is because the O2s don't read accurately when they're not hot, or within a few percent of lambda 1; at high TP the car runs much richer than that.) Closed loop means the car is watching the actual mixture relative to the commanded mixture. It's always using the MAF to determine fueling, but based on what it sees (via the O2s) it adjusts fuel delivery slightly, and that adjustment is in the fuel trims.

The LTFTs are a correction factor. So if STFT shows lambda and LTFT is a correction factor, that means that an LTFT over 1 increases fuel delivery (enrich the mixture) but STFT/lambda over 1 is a leaner mixture. This can be confusing!

If the car wants to see a lambda of 1 on the O2s, but if it commands a lambda (STFT) of 1 and observes a lean condition on the O2s, it will slowly enrich the mixture until it sees a lambda of 1. If it has to command a lambda of .9 to read an actual lambda of 1, that would mean it needs to enrich the mixture 10% over spec (e.g. you are running lean - a common symptom of a vacuum leak or dirty MAF).

The PCM continually observes STFTs and averages out how far off-center they are throughout the driving range, and stores this as the LTFT. So if you were 10% lean at idle, but 5% lean while cruising at 40 MPH, the LTFT would be 1.10 at a low airflow reading and 1.05 at a slightly higher airflow. This is a part of the adaptive learning routines in the PCM. The LTFT is stored in volatile memory in the PCM. Meaning it gets wiped out if you yank the battery.

You can tell if the MAF sensor and O2s agree with one another by looking for the total fuel correction while running in closed loop. Closed loop means the car wants to maintain a perfect 1.00 lambda by swithching from .98 to 1.02. So if you're seeing STFTs doing that and your LTFTs are also .98 to 1.02, then you know you're only a couple percent away from perfect spec as measured by the factory. If you were seeing .98 and 1.02 on your STFT but you had 1.1 on your LTFT, that would mean the PCM is adding 10% fuel due to a lean condition - possibly caused by the MAF.

In Neuro's case, his STFTs look fine, but his LTFTs show 1.04 and 1.06-08 on the other bank. It's pretty uniform across the operating range, so I'm attributing a portion of that to injector flow differences between banks. It is possible a couple percent of that could be MAF sensor related, but a bad MAF usually manifests in the worst ways as bogus or erratic readings. A replacement might bring it closer to spec, but it still wouldn't be perfect. Only way to dial it in that close would be to have the car tuned for the unique characteristics of the MAF on the car.

Because the PCM is also programmed with the base AFR of the fuel (back in the 90s E0 was more common), our cars think lambda 1 is 14.64:1 AFR. Because E10 is more prevalent now, it's entirely possible the 4% enrichment seen in his LTFTs is just a result of that difference. E10 burns 4% more fuel than E0 does at stoich, after all. :)
 
The only thing that's going to fix a problem fike that is about a cubic foot of money. You'd have to swap the transmission, torque converter, engine bearings or engine, eec, maf, basicaly every rotating part. Stop swapping when it quits. :zshrug:
 
Pipe down everyone, class is now in session! 🤓

The MAF sensor tells the PCM how much air enters the engine. It uses this data to determine how much fuel to inject, and also is able to calculate the cylinder pressures and determine the appropriate amount of spark advance.

Once the combustion cycle completes, the oxygen in the exhaust gases is measured by the O2 sensors. Under normal conditions the car runs at "stoich" or the perfect air:fuel ratio to ensure complete combustion of all the fuel and oxygen in the air, which is 14.08 parts fuel to air (for E10).

However...........

The car doesn't run at 14.08:1 all the time. It actually switches from slightly lean to slightly rich every couple seconds, centered around perfect stoich.

The two fuel trims - short term and long term - refer to different things.

Short term trim refers to commanded lambda. Long term is a correction factor at a given mass of air.

Lambda refers to a linear scalar of AFR that is independent of fuel type. Lambda 1 is always stoich. Lambda under 1 is rich, and over 1 is lean. E10 stoich is 14.08:1. E0 is 14.64. It's easy to convert lambda to AFR as long as you know the fuel type (stoich) - .85 lambda with E10 is about 12:1.

The STFT, when logged, will show the switching of the fuel system around lambda 1. If you log STFT most of the time it'll be switching between .98 and 1.02 or so. This is assuming all is perfect with the car.

HOWEVER it only does this when it's in "closed loop" - O2 feedback mode. Open loop is where the PCM is only using the MAF sensor. The car runs in closed loop all the time except just after it the engine has started or if you're getting on the throttle. Closed loop means the car is watching the actual mixture relative to the commanded mixture. It's always using the MAF to determine fueling, but based on what it sees (via the O2s) it adjusts fuel delivery slightly, and that adjustment is in the fuel trims.

The LTFTs are a correction factor. So if STFT shows lambda and LTFT is a correction factor, that means that an LTFT over 1 increases fuel delivery (enrich the mixture) but STFT/lambda over 1 is a leaner mixture. This can be confusing!

If the car wants to see a lambda of 1 on the O2s, but if it commands a lambda (STFT) of 1 and observes a lean condition on the O2s, it will slowly enrich the mixture until it sees a lambda of 1. If it has to command a lambda of .9 to read an actual lambda of 1, that would mean it needs to enrich the mixture 10% over spec (e.g. you are running lean - a common symptom of a vacuum leak or dirty MAF).

The PCM continually observes STFTs and averages out how far off-center they are throughout the driving range, and stores this as the LTFT. So if you were 10% lean at idle, but 5% lean while cruising at 40 MPH, the LTFT would be 10% at a low airflow reading and 5% at a slightly higher airflow. This is a part of the adaptive learning routines in the PCM. The LTFT is stored in volatile memory in the PCM. Meaning it gets wiped out if you yank the battery.

You can tell if the MAF sensor and O2s agree with one another by looking for the total fuel correction while running in closed loop. Closed loop means the car wants to maintain a perfect 1.00 lambda by swithching from .98 to 1.02. So if you're seeing STFTs doing that and your LTFTs are also .98 to 1.02, then you know you're only a couple percent away from perfect spec as measured by the factory. If you were seeing .98 and 1.02 on your STFT but you had 1.1 on your LTFT, that would mean the PCM is adding 10% fuel due to a lean condition - possibly caused by the MAF.

In Neuro's case, his STFTs look fine, but his LTFTs show 1.04 and 1.06-08 on the other bank. It's pretty uniform across the operating range, so I'm attributing a portion of that to injector flow differences between banks. It is possible a couple percent of that could be MAF sensor related, but a bad MAF usually manifests in the worst ways as bogus or erratic readings. A replacement might bring it closer to spec, but it still wouldn't be perfect. Only way to dial it in that close would be to have the car tuned for the unique characteristics of the MAF on the car.

Because the PCM is also programmed with the base AFR of the fuel (back in the 90s E0 was more common), our cars think lambda 1 is 14.64:1 AFR. Because E10 is more prevalent now, it's entirely possible the 4% enrichment seen in his LTFTs is just a result of that difference. E10 burns 4% more fuel than E0 does at stoich, after all. :)

Damn...now it all makes sense whenever I read about the short/long fuel trims in postings.

Thank you for your time to explain all this, Terminator.
I'll have to read it a couple more times to digest it, as well as the link Kidd posted earlier.

So, if I understand correctly, my short/long trims look alright enough and the MAF looks fine.

Also, it sounds like the tremor could be caused by something as mundane as the current blend of gas coming out of the pumps that our PCM's simply weren't programmed to account for back in the day...or the O2's and/or MAF may have lost some precision or sensitivity due to age, thus feeding slightly erroneous data to the PCM?

I'm still working through some of the basic process of elimination on parts. A couple nights ago, put my original coil packs back on to see if the new Motorcraft coils could be the culprit, then cleared the PCM with fuse 15...but haven't driven enough to see if they're the cause of the tremor. Next will be testing the EGR and pulling & cleaning it, as several have suggested.

Plugs & wires are also new Autolites/Motorcraft...but not sure how to test the wires for a defect. And pulling the new plugs to inspect for issues is a lower-back agony I don't want to do, but might have to.
 
I think it's close enough to not draw immediate attention as the first, most likely culprit. If you're going to spend time looking at issues, IMO the MAF and O2s (or a vacuum leak) are less likely.

The PCM can go 20% rich or lean on fueling before it throws a MIL and code. But best practices for tuning target 4% either way.

When tuning a car with a fatter cam and/or intake with different flow characteristics, a surging idle is almost always caused by incorrect idle airflow tables. It's much more sensitive when airflow is more turbulent inside the intake. With a stock engine it's more forgiving, but there are still limits to what can be accommodated. This is what the ISC_INTEGRATOR PID (in SCT logging software) helps fine-tune. I wish there was an equivalent in your package; that would be really insightful and help confirm/deny that line of thought. 🤔

Vacuum leaks also wreak havoc at idle, but that's because a vacuum leak lets in a given amount of unmetered air for a specified manifold vacuum. At high RPM and low TP the manifold vacuum is higher and total (metered) airflow is lower, yet air through the vacuum leak is higher, so the vacuum leak represents a much higher percentage of air entering the engine which the PCM needs to adjust fueling for (via closed loop O2 feedback showing a lean condition). That's why vacuum leaks are worst at idle or when you let off the gas and start coasting. In your case the fuel trims are consistent at low airflow and moderate airflow; if there was a vacuum leak your LTFTs would be higher at idle than at 40 - not so in your logs.
 
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For the electronics nerds, the maf element s a platinum resistor. it is heated to above ambient, and how much power it takes to maintain that temperature is tracked and converted to an airflow reading. Anything that insulates it in any way affects the reading.
 
I think it's close enough to not draw immediate attention as the first, most likely culprit. If you're going to spend time looking at issues, IMO the MAF and O2s (or a vacuum leak) are less likely.

The PCM can go 20% rich or lean on fueling before it throws a MIL and code. But best practices for tuning target 4% either way.

When tuning a car with a fatter cam and/or intake with different flow characteristics, a surging idle is almost always caused by incorrect idle airflow tables. It's much more sensitive when airflow is more turbulent inside the intake. With a stock engine it's more forgiving, but there are still limits to what can be accommodated. This is what the ISC_INTEGRATOR PID (in SCT logging software) helps fine-tune. I wish there was an equivalent in your package; that would be really insightful and help confirm/deny that line of thought. 🤔

Vacuum leaks also wreak havoc at idle, but that's because a vacuum leak lets in a given amount of unmetered air for a specified manifold vacuum. At high RPM and low TP the manifold vacuum is higher and total (metered) airflow is lower, yet air through the vacuum leak is higher, so the vacuum leak represents a much higher percentage of air entering the engine which the PCM needs to adjust fueling for (via closed loop O2 feedback showing a lean condition). That's why vacuum leaks are worst at idle or when you let off the gas and start coasting. In your case the fuel trims are consistent at low airflow and moderate airflow; if there was a vacuum leak your LTFTs would be higher at idle than at 40 - not so in your logs.
More good info, Terminator...thanks.

Alright...so we're fairly certain that the O2's & MAF are fine and there's no vac leaks (recently replaced all the vac/emissions lines).
And there's no codes and nothing you see in the data that could be the definitive culprit.

I just bought a MityVac vac pump, the fuel pump & vacuum gauge tester, and wrench set with a 1-1/16" from Harbor Freight (for the EGR), so I'm better equipped to do other things.
I'm going to vac test & pull the EGR today/tonight...and maybe pull & inspect the new plugs just to check them off the list. But I'm guessing if anything was wrong with them or one of their associated components, some code would be thrown.

Should I test the new Motorcraft wires with a multimeter? If so, what should be the values on those?
Could the IAC be a culprit...or does the data not support that?

If the above turn out fine, I don't know where else to go from here in troubleshooting the tremor.
Any thoughts?
 

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