Ignition Lock Cylinder and assembly

[White Lincoln]

Hi everyone and thank you for this site! Fantastic folks on here.

I have had this issue for some time, well... some 20 years, but it is really bad now, especially with the heat. I turn the key, hear the fuel pump go on, then turn the ignition and click... like the battery is dead. I checked the battery and it has 12 volts (13.98 with engine running), so its not the battery. If I pull the ignition lock out and put it back in, VAROOOM! Starts right up, no hesitation, no signs of a failing battery. As mentioned, this has happened for the longest time, cold, heat whatever, and it happens out of the blue. I even turn the key around and same issue. I can also push real hard on the lock cylinder while turning the key and it will start as well (most of the time).

I believe the car was repo'd before we bought it and if so, the assembly could have been damaged. You might be able to see the inside of the assembly (pic attached) and it does not look right, though I could be wrong.

Any suggestions what I can do? I can't find the assembly replacement anymore and I may have to go to the J yard to get another one. But before I do that, I was wondering if anyone else has run into this and if there is a "stupid fix" (oh geez... that's all I needed to do?).

Thanks!

PS: I am on my 4th cylinder now. So its not the cylinder... or is it? Hmmmm.....

 

[89 TBIRD]

Could be the ignition switch. I had an issue where it would be tough to start, and the lights, radio, blower fan etc. would go in and out. Jiggling the key seemed to make them come on for a bit then out again. Changing the ignition switch fixed it.

 

[White Lincoln]

Could be the ignition switch. I had an issue where it would be tough to start, and the lights, radio, blower fan etc. would go in and out. Jiggling the key seemed to make them come on for a bit then out again. Changing the ignition switch fixed it.

Hey 89, thanks for the feedback.

I replaced that not too long ago with an ignition switch from RockAuto. Nothing flickers or has issues as you mentioned.

I had a mechanic try to find out what it might be, and he found a wire that someone had tapped into for an alarm (we think), that was about to break away from the connection. It was located under the steering console (the half box under the steering wheel). He replaced the connection and the issue went away for a while, but the issue came back a few months later.

Someone on "the other site" mentioned to me they thought it might be the clock spring, but I don't have any of the symptoms of the clock spring going bad.

Thanks again.

 

[Grog6]

That sounds like a malfunctioning alarm. The wire he fixed was likely the starter relay, if you can turn the key on, and jump the starter with a screwdriver, that's the deal. It can also be the factory alarm relay, or not being in park or neutral. The mlps is also known as the "neutral safety switch"

 

[White Lincoln]

That sounds like a malfunctioning alarm. The wire he fixed was likely the starter relay, if you can turn the key on, and jump the starter with a screwdriver, that's the deal. It can also be the factory alarm relay, or not being in park or neutral. The mlps is also known as the "neutral safety switch"

Funny you should mention that. I replaced about 3 of those over the years too... stupid me. I thought about it being the Neutral Safety Switch again, but the tranny is not that old ( replaced a few years back) and as mentioned, has been intermittent over the years, old tranny, new tranny... I have had some issues with the tranny and when I take it in to have it checked, I was going to ask that they check that it is not out of range enough that it might cause this issue. I keep procrastinating about taking the car in because I have such little faith in auto shops that they will 1) tell me the truth about what is wrong, if anything and 2) not charge me more than my doctor would charge (before insurance) who spent 12 years in college to learn his skill...

You are correct, the broken wire was from a splice someone had done before I got the car. There is a small hole in the console below the idiot lights where an alarm lamp went. The system was torn out before the car was resold.

I was just trying to confirm if the issue is with the lock cylinder socket or cylinder assembly as I call it.

Thanks though for the reminder about the neutral safety switch.

 

[theterminator93]

Based on the description of events I think it's probably more likely to be an electrical issue than a mechanical one. A flaky or weak connection someplace, most likely. Unfortunately these are also the hardest to definitively diagnose. A weak connection can only really be measured under load. All the same, if you have a helper who can jiggle connections while you measure resistance with a DMM, it might be insightful for ruling things out at least.

You've already hit on all the major other factors I can think of...

Ignition switch
MLPS
Battery/starter

 

[97teebs]

in your picture above, with a hook pick you can get that green plastic out of the way once you do then take picture from same angle. then you can remove the gear thats behind the green plastic. the point of the picture without the green plastic is so you line the gear exactly how you removed it. once you have the gear out inspect it for wear/broken or chipped teeth also inspect the upper side of where that gear goes into for the same. try not to move the flat gear (thats left in when you remove the circular gear) because that will also change the timing and just make it harder to put back together. if you reassemble and you can't turn key to accs. or to start that means you didn't set the timing correctly. its not often that those pieces break but it is possible. if it is broken it doesn't have to come out of a cougar/thunderbird any ford 1996 and older with exception to the escort/probe type cars so any of the rangers or F series crown vic etc... also while you have the gear out slide it onto your ign and make sure there isn't alot of play between the male part of the IGN and the Female part of the gear.

 

[Grog6]

I think there must've been some dealer installed deal with viper, two of my cars, and one guy met one day all had one, malfunctioning in the same way. He didn't have the keyfob, so if it randomly reset, he had to disconnect the battery and dink around to get it to work. All you have to do is remove it. It was under the dash, and the starter relay is under there too. unplugging the relay made mine work. It has to work either unplugged, or connected to switched power.

 

[Kidd-7]

I tend to agree with grog and terminator, although teebs has very good advice and should probably check those things to rule out.
The fact that some wiring was “fixed” and the problem went away for a while; start there. Figure out what that wire Is for and why it might have been spliced.

 

[White Lincoln]

To tie this down into a nice write up, it appears we have two sets of ideas here, that to me both make sense.
1) The wiring was jacked when an alarm system was added and then removed prior to the customer (me) purchasing the car.
2) If said car was repo'd, the ignition cylinder was most likely jacked with a drill or other device that will damage the cylinder, but not so much the assembly.

Note on number 2. If the car was repo'd, wouldn't a new cylinder be installed? And can a lock smith make a cylinder to match the OEM key set?

From these two suggestions, I have a plethora if info to go on now. I will update as I work through these two clues.

Exceptional site, just exceptional....

 

[97teebs]

Yes the new lock can be keyed to match by a locksmith. I do it all the time for stolen theft recovery (I am a locksmith). Definitely agree that it may have more to do with wiring than the gear set but it's a suggestion to check into if you don't get anywhere with the wiring..

 

[Zep5.0]

I may have the ignition cylinder and wiring from my donor car if you find either are the issue.

 

[97teebs]

To tie this down into a nice write up, it appears we have two sets of ideas here, that to me both make sense.
1) The wiring was jacked when an alarm system was added and then removed prior to the customer (me) purchasing the car.
2) If said car was repo'd, the ignition cylinder was most likely jacked with a drill or other device that will damage the cylinder, but not so much the assembly.

Note on number 2. If the car was repo'd, wouldn't a new cylinder be installed? And can a lock smith make a cylinder to match the OEM key set?

From these two suggestions, I have a plethora if info to go on now. I will update as I work through these two clues.

Exceptional site, just exceptional....

Just an example of the skill set that a good/decent locksmith could do with your car. I can cut keys from a picture of a key. (don't ever post pics of keys lol) so if that's a possibility then keying a cylinder to match an existing key is certainty possible

 

[White Lincoln]

My point to the lock cylinder question, which was answered very well by our "on staff Lock Smith for BirdCats (LOL - just kidding) is that if the car was repo'd, the "owners / possessors" of the car can have a lock smith rekey a new cylinder so it looks like OEM and the buyer would not be suspicious the car was repo'd. And the buyer was me 20 some years ago.

"I'll be dipped"

Thanks 97 for clarification on the subject.

 

[White Lincoln]

I may have the ignition cylinder and wiring from my donor car if you find either are the issue.

We need to talk. Will drop you a PM.

 

[Grog6]

Just an example of the skill set that a good/decent locksmith could do with your car. I can cut keys from a picture of a key. (don't ever post pics of keys lol) so if that's a possibility then keying a cylinder to match an existing key is certainty possible

I found pictures of all the TSA master keys for any lock or luggage. Never had to make one, but you never know.

 

[97teebs]

My point to the lock cylinder question, which was answered very well by our "on staff Lock Smith for BirdCats (LOL - just kidding) is that if the car was repo'd, the "owners / possessors" of the car can have a lock smith rekey a new cylinder so it looks like OEM and the buyer would not be suspicious the car was repo'd. And the buyer was me 20 some years ago.

"I'll be dipped"

Thanks 97 for clarification on the subject.

Yea np the only way you'd know is there is stamping on some of the parts that would lead you to Ford parts or if it's a replacement to aftermarket parts. Or if you super familiar with looking at them you can tell just by minor difference internally

 

[97teebs]

I found pictures of all the TSA master keys for any lock or luggage. Never had to make one, but you never know.

Yeah those locks are so easy to pick we use them as training for new hires

 

[Grog6]

There's only a few ford keys anyway; the locksmith I went to to get a trunk key for the red Cougar, had a dusty cardboard box, of all of them. There were two keyrings, the rest were wire ties. he took those two rings out to my car, found the door and ignition, and gave me new copies. Maybe of a set of 50 keys or so.

 

[97teebs]

There's more than 50...those boxes he pulled out is what you use after you've made the door key. So the way it works is the doors have spaced 1-6 in the and the ign has spaces 5-10 so both the door and ign share 5 & 6 so one you know what the correct depth for spaces 5 and 6 are you go to those boxes one of them is labeled 56 that means one of those keys will turn you ign assuming the ign hadn't been changed but also the keys in the box are cut different on each side. The locks are only utilizing one side of the key. (your key is cut on both sides for convenience) so if you saw let's say 20 keys in the 56 box that's actually 40 keys

So theses are only for the ign. You still have to figure out the correct cuts for the door. Now the trunk is a little simpler it only has 5 spaces so its much easier to have a set of try out keys for

 

[White Lincoln]

Wow... I started a whole different post here.... LOL

Anyway, I pulled the bottom panel off from the steering column and there are two wires that were spliced into at some point, but the guy that found the broke one did a really nice job at fixing it and putting it all together. So, I doubt this is electrical as I also narrowed down the issue last night when the key turned, and click.. nothing. I pushed in on the key, lock assembly real hard and VAROOM! started right up.

Zep was nice enough to look and see if he still has his lock assembly from his junk car.

Best thing that came out of this is I found out I have not had floor lamps since I bought the car... seriously. Both sockets, on the driver and passenger side did not have a bulb in the socket for the floor light by the door. I had some new ones I never used so I put those in.

Life is good again.

 

[theterminator93]

I wonder if it's less the lock cylinder and more the linkage down the steering column? There are two long pieces of plastic connected together where the column pivots; it's been known to break there. Maybe it's worn at the pin?

 

[Grog6]

The one I needed was for the trunk. I got a full set for all the cars, as well as house keys.

 

[97teebs]

Wow... I started a whole different post here.... LOL

Anyway, I pulled the bottom panel off from the steering column and there are two wires that were spliced into at some point, but the guy that found the broke one did a really nice job at fixing it and putting it all together. So, I doubt this is electrical as I also narrowed down the issue last night when the key turned, and click.. nothing. I pushed in on the key, lock assembly real hard and VAROOM! started right up.

Zep was nice enough to look and see if he still has his lock assembly from his junk car.

Best thing that came out of this is I found out I have not had floor lamps since I bought the car... seriously. Both sockets, on the driver and passenger side did not have a bulb in the socket for the floor light by the door. I had some new ones I never used so I put those in.

Life is good again.

Sorry I didn't mean to hijack your thread. You may need to pull the column and start inspecting for worn or broken parts. I'm not sure how much you can or can't get to with it installed in the car

 

[White Lincoln]

I wonder if it's less the lock cylinder and more the linkage down the steering column? There are two long pieces of plastic connected together where the column pivots; it's been known to break there. Maybe it's worn at the pin?

I looked into that as well. There is a plastic piece, the Ignition Switch Actuator and I wondered if that could be the issue as well. Then I read up on it and it either works or breaks and if it goes out, you can't turn the key. So, not the issue, if this is the piece you are referring to.

 

[White Lincoln]

Sorry I didn't mean to hijack your thread. You may need to pull the column and start inspecting for worn or broken parts. I'm not sure how much you can or can't get to with it installed in the car

LOL! Never! Hey, if it is anyway related, it belongs. I have no qualms about someone jumping in on something related and the key is related!

No worries 97, it's all good.

 

[97teebs]

Yeah I get to talking about locksmithing and get carried away...

 

[97teebs]

I looked into that as well. There is a plastic piece, the Ignition Switch Actuator and I wondered if that could be the issue as well. Then I read up on it and it either works or breaks and if it goes out, you can't turn the key. So, not the issue, if this is the piece you are referring to.

View attachment 6110

That might be it I've never seen one out because we only handle the cylinder and keys so if it's not those then it gets taken to a mechanic... I'm pretty sure it's like a pot metal though (just basing on memory and it's been awhile since I've pulled one of those locks)

 

[Grog6]

it is, ust like the steering column, lol. If the car has an alarm, there's a switch in there somethere that goes to the alarm, and if the ignition key recp get's pulled forcibly, t will shut it all down.

 

[White Lincoln]

Update:
I pulled the steering wheel and cylinder key insides out and compared them to a unit that I purchased from Zep and I will be @#$%, they are the same as far as wear and tear. At this point, I am not sure what to other than put the guts from the one I bought into my cylinder assembly and see if that makes any diff. First thing I did was try the key and cylinder form the donor parts and it did not make any difference. The car still would not start. Once I pushed the key in hard enough, it started. I might go back and have a look at the tranny position sensor just to be sure.